The importance of Judas the Iscariot

[-Peacemaker-]

This is kind of a wierd thought but as far a satan goes wouldn't it have been better if he hasn't enter Judas? In fact shouldn't satan have done everything possible to make sure Jesus wasn't crucified so that he couldn't sacrifice himself for sin and then be resurrected? If Jesus had died a normal death in his sleep is work couldn't have been accomplished

 

[Nefelie]

Everyone must choose whether to serve one or the other. No one can serve two masters. Judas apparently choose the darkness.

But the debate here is: did he really choose on his own or was he forced in one direction?

The temple police who were looking for Jesus because he overturned the money tables two years in a row would have found him eventually. Judas just made it easier for them. It would have happened anyway.

This is an assumption. There is no such reference in the Gospels. According to the Gospels, his “crime” was that he declared himself “son of God” or “Messiah”.

And BTW, where do you get the “two years in a row” info? It was a one time thing, wasn’t it?

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Maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. Your question was "is one Jew enough for such hate?" Can you explaine hat you meant there?

I mean that we have the “good Jews” who are many: the Apostles, the crowd following Jesus and of course Jesus himself and the one “bad Jew” who betrayed Jesus. Is this one “rotten apple” enough for such hate?

There is a concept in Judaism of the sin of Adam affecting later generations and the world at large, for instance with death.

I have read somewhere another concept, but I have to look it up and get back to you.

As for this one, it sounds valid, but why is it Adam’s sin? Eve and the snake started it!

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You mean the betrayal by Peter? Just kidding (sort of).

I'd be honored if Jesus had chosen me as he chose Judas to play a role in scheme that would take less discerning eyes a couple millennia to figure out.

I really love the way you think!

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This is kind of a wierd thought but as far a satan goes wouldn't it have been better if he hasn't enter Judas? In fact shouldn't satan have done everything possible to make sure Jesus wasn't crucified so that he couldn't sacrifice himself for sin and then be resurrected? If Jesus had died a normal death in his sleep is work couldn't have been accomplished

That’s a really good question and I have been asking myself the same thing.

So, here are my thoughts on that:

1) Satan got plenty “bad people” from Judas betrayal. As mentioned to the OP, his betrayal triggered a series of betrayals. So, satan got his way… in a way.

2) Satan didn’t really lost with Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. Actually, he has equal winning with Jesus.
Think about it: with out Jesus and his teachings, how could we know what is right and what is wrong? What is “Jesus-like” and what is “satan-like”? Whatever we would do or think, is kinda of a “grey area”. With Jesus is clear and the rules are set. Therefore, satan knows his own, just like Jesus knows his. Get it? Game, set, play!

…Not to mention that it has been debated that Jesus and satan are just the two faces of the same coin.

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[Tumah]

I mean that we have the “good Jews” who are many: the Apostles, the crowd following Jesus and of course Jesus himself and the one “bad Jew” who betrayed Jesus. Is this one “rotten apple” enough for such hate?

It seems to me like the Jews who follow Jesus into the new religion are the good guys, while those resistant to him, are bad.

I have read somewhere another concept, but I have to look it up and get back to you.

As for this one, it sounds valid, but why is it Adam’s sin? Eve and the snake started it!

Actually it is referred to as the "advice of the snake" not the "sin of Adam" in some places. But Adam also means "man" and since it affects all mankind, I guess the name stuck. Some things are like that. The 7 Noahide laws are named after Noah, yet the first 6 were commanded to Adam. Kind of makes it more like Adam's commandments with so many of them in his court, but there you go.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Thought you might like that historical background, which bears upon your comment.

Well, all I meant was that the cross was used as a logo (though to be fair, fish were used also even before car magnets) because when you're selling amulets or whatever, you want something that is easily identifiable. Besides, you act like Romans never poisoned anyone. That's just silly. Poison has been a time-honored tradition for nearly all of human history.

The main reason is because science has become their/your religion.

Science is a way of knowing, that is all. It is also the one most likely to give verifiable evidence and conclusions.

I have met a lot of science professors who truly worship Science.

I have my doubts about that. When you are in a SCIENCE class, you should be talking exclusively about SCIENCE. That is not WORSHIPPING science, merely using the tools of the relevant trade.

There is much more information available in Religion and Philosophy about Deity than there is in Science.

Science is the only one that cares about evidence, though. You can write stories all day long. No matter how beautiful and soul-affirming that story is, unless science can verify what you said, it's JUST a story.

This is kind of a wierd thought but as far a satan goes wouldn't it have been better if he hasn't enter Judas?

What if Satan wasn't really Satan? Jesus specifically calls Peter "Satan" at one point. Peter is characterized in canon and non-canon as a fame-grubbing egotist with a side order of cowardice when the chips are down. Peter supposedly didn't want Jesus to die, but then again, Peter was only getting shown up by Jesus at every turn (Pete couldn't walk on water, exorcise 100% of demons, etc) and denies Jesus three whole times just to save his own skin. I think Peter named himself the Rock of the Church and manipulated others to obtain and maintain top dog status, but first Jesus had to go.

But the debate here is: did he really choose on his own or was he forced in one direction?

Another thing is that Judas may have been working WITH Jesus on this matter. Jesus, despite all of his behaviors showing the contrary, desired martyrdom, at least in public when surrounded by an audience. He told Judas to do something quickly, which was set up the arrest. I think Judas and Jesus thought Jesus was going to have a "the reason you suck" speech and everyone would be cowed by his oration. However, it backfired, thus Judas committed suicide.

Or, if Peter and Judas were in on it, Peter got rid of Judas (Peter has a weird habit of being around people who die "coughfromWrathofGodcough" who didn't agree with him.

 

[Nefelie]

It seems to me like the Jews who follow Jesus into the new religion are the good guys, while those resistant to him, are bad.

So, some people are good and others are bad… What else is new?

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Actually it is referred to as the "advice of the snake" not the "sin of Adam" in some places. But Adam also means "man" and since it affects all mankind, I guess the name stuck.

That makes sense

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What if Satan wasn't really Satan? Jesus specifically calls Peter "Satan" at one point. Peter is characterized in canon and non-canon as a fame-grubbing egotist with a side order of cowardice when the chips are down. Peter supposedly didn't want Jesus to die, but then again, Peter was only getting shown up by Jesus at every turn (Pete couldn't walk on water, exorcise 100% of demons, etc) and denies Jesus three whole times just to save his own skin.

I 100% agree

I think Peter named himself the Rock of the Church and manipulated others to obtain and maintain top dog status, but first Jesus had to go.

I probably wouldn’t go that far.

IMO, Peter was called “the rock” on which Jesus would build his church, because he is the perfect example of the kind of people Jesus wanted to address. Remember that Jesus also said that it is the sick that need the cure, not the healthy ones -when he was talking about to whom he will deliver the teachings. So, Peter represents “the sick” that need the teachings of Jesus. They are “the sick” at heart, at mind, at spirit.

Another thing is that Judas may have been working WITH Jesus on this matter.

Yes, that is my presentation at the OP

I think Judas and Jesus thought Jesus was going to have a "the reason you suck" speech and everyone would be cowed by his oration. However, it backfired, thus Judas committed suicide.

I don’t think I got that… Please explain?

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