-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Holy Spirit
- Thread starter idea
- Start date
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
There are different understanding with regards to the nature of the Holy Spirit. This is the Baha'i View:
"The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spiritsthat is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions
"The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spiritsthat is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.
Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror. " \Abdulbaha - Some Answered Questions
idea
Question Everything
Thank you for your thoughts!
I especially liked the parts I put in bold. I agree, that the Spirit offers us a direct connection to God, that it stands as a witness of Christ, and reflects the love and intelligence of the divine - not only within the hearts of the apostles, but within our own hearts as well.
To me, the Spirit is the great teacher.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my cname, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance..
I especially liked the parts I put in bold. I agree, that the Spirit offers us a direct connection to God, that it stands as a witness of Christ, and reflects the love and intelligence of the divine - not only within the hearts of the apostles, but within our own hearts as well.
To me, the Spirit is the great teacher.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my cname, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance..
Some people think of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost as the same, but I hold a distinction between the two.
Since you are LDS, I'll quote some of your holy texts that I find enlightening upon the subject of the Spirit. D&C 93 is one of the better discourses to be found upon the subject.
D&C 93
9 The light and the Redeemer of the world; the Spirit of truth, who came into the world, because the world was made by him, and in him was the life of men and the light of men.
...
11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.
...
29 ... Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
...
36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.
D&C 84
45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
D&C 45
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived--verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
If early Mormonism could be characterized by one thing, which tone and "Spirit" was exemplified best by their founder Joseph Smith Jr., it was the Holy Spirit. And, I say this in a technical sense.
If you look at spiritual possession in terms of characteristics or attributes that are manifesting through a person, you can understand what the Holy Spirit is better.
Some people are taken by a spirit of Hate, Anger, Lust, Jealousy, Fear, etc.
Some people are taken by a spirit of Love, Forgiveness, Virtue, Charity, Courage, etc.
There are many spirits that can get a grip on your being. Of all the spirits that you can be taken by, the most holy and glorious spirit is the Spirit of Truth.
Joseph Smith Jr. was incredibly possessed of this Spirit. He was constantly in pursuit of a better understanding of God and His dealings with man. He did so with an eye single to the glory of God (intelligence). There was no dogma or tradition popular in his day that held sway upon him if it didn't pass the truth test.
Even after he had a powerful establishment grown up around him, He rigidly opposed people sliding into the "just follow the leader" mentality, because this meant people weren't possessed by the spirit of truth to be able to recognize it for themselves independently. His major thrust above all others was for people to get this Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, the presence of this Spirit has greatly diminished as the priesthood bodies he formed have become defunct and/or non available to its members and the church he formed has degenerated into a corporation beholden to the state and its corporate officers who are now agents of the state.
The point I am making is having the Spirit of Truth, which is the Holy Spirit, means you are a person whose mental construction is geared towards rigorously proving out all things as true or false, regardless of the consequences you may have to face. Thus, you must place yourself beholden to no other power or force less than that.
I'll give you some examples of thoughts that could take place in the minds of two LDS members. One of them will have what they think is the Holy Spirit, coupled with the burnings in the bosom experience, but which is not actually of the Holy Spirit, and the other shall have the Holy Spirit, and may not experience the burning in the bosom.
Member #1: I've been praying to know that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God.
Member #2: I've been praying to know if Thomas S. Monson is a prophet of God.
Member #1: I feel so glad to have such a wonderful man at the head of the church.
Member #2: I am grateful for men who take upon them such huge responsibility.
Member #1: I know our prophet will never lead us astray. (Sigh of relief and a feeling of peace and comfort.)
Member #2: I'll do my part to sustain our prophet in righteousness, or to object to him in unrighteous. By everyone so doing, our prophet will never be able to lead us astray. (Gasp of hope your fellow members will have the courage to object if necessary.)
Member #1: I'll do whatever the prophet counsels me to do.
Member #2: I'll get confirmation on everything the prophet says for myself so that I know for myself what God is trying to accomplish through him and exactly what God wants me to do about it.
In some of these the difference is subtle, but it is a critical difference.
For example, God warns us that we will get what we ask for when we ask with real intent and faith, but we are also warned to beware what we ask for because it could turn to our condemnation. If a member seeking a witness straight up asks God to give them a witness that Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, they will get that witness whether he is or isn't, including the burning in the bosom and everything.
People can fool themselves into thinking they are asking for that witness if and only if he actually is a prophet, but they are allowing the peer pressure to have sway such that they are not really being totally open and objective to the possibility that he's a fraud who is nothing more than a corporate officer who has no more of a direct connection to God than anyone else does.
Having the Spirit of Truth means you have sufficient personal discipline to stand up against the forces of the herd to cut your own path if that path becomes necessary. And, inside of that personal discipline, there should be a willingness to consider that any man in flesh and blood is capable of leading you astray no matter how much responsibility and authority is placed upon him and no matter how many millions of people depend upon him.
The Spirit of Truth = Assume nothing and be willing at all times to cut your own way!
Last edited:
mohamad Gamal
Member
thats quite an interesting subject
How i see the holy spirit is not necessarly how all muslims do but what i see is that it is a spirit sent by god to jesus to aid him and help him to spread the message of god (what ever it is islam, chrisiaity, etc.....) all over the world
p.s : sorry if i spelled some words wrong coz i am not using autocorrect :S
greentwiga
Active Member
One of my favorite pictures of the Holy Spirit is the Olive tree illustration in Romans (about 11.) The Sap comes from the roots and goes through the trunk to the branches. The branches are people. When we remain attached to Jesus (the trunk), we The Holy Spirit (sap) comes from God the Father (roots). Jesus and the branches are the only parts of the tree normally seen. When we are attached, the Holy Spirit naturally causes us to bear fruit (both Love, joy, peace, etc., and seeing others saved and growing.) The Holy Spirit is that which supplies us with the power to do what animals cannot, to deny our own desires and live for other. We should be like Jesus in Philippians and empty ourselves, being willing to die that others may live. The Holy Spirit is the comforter that comes alongside us and enables us to do these things.
Muffled
Jesus in me
You have not understood the Qu'ran on this subject but then it isn't very specific. The Bible is much more specific.
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is often how the Paraclete is translated but it is a bit innacurate. The Holy Spirit is God. The Paraclete is God in us.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God:
He keeps me from sin, renews my mind and is the best friend I have ever had.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
...And I thought the Paraclete was what took care of you until the real Clete arrived...
outhouse
Atheistically
To me
it is something mentioned in the OT and blwon out of poroprtion by the roman authors of the NT
the spirit was not viewed in the OT as a dualality or two different beings as one.
the was no sepration from yahweh in the OT
GawdAweful
Pseudo-Philosopher
Without the NT terminology, it is an almost perfect visualization of what I believe. God in and through us giving us free will and the ability to be the best we can within our potential as human beings. "To deny our own desires and live for other
Great analogy greentwiga!
Last edited:
idea
Question Everything
Sorry, I haven't been on here in awhile, just now getting over to read this - thanks for your comments!
I agree, although I like to call it the Spirit of God instead of the Spirit of Truth - but yes, talking about the same thing.
I think part of what we are supposed to learn - is not just how to trust and have faith in God, but also how to trust and have faith in one another... The Spirit helps us in this, without the Spirit, we would have no way of knowing the heart of another... with the Spirit, occasionally we are given a small glimpse.
I agree, although I like to call it the Spirit of God instead of the Spirit of Truth - but yes, talking about the same thing.
To me, this is what missionary work should be centered on - not debating, but just explaining what the Spirit is so that people can recognize it when they feel it.
To me, the Spirit of Truth inspires people to grow closer to one another, rather than to "cut their own path" as you say. I think everything God commands is centered around our relationships with one another - don't lie, don't steal, don't be jealous, don't kill one another - love one another - it's all about how we treat one another, and the main goal of it all is to be united in one heart and one mind. I see anything that divides and alienates as coming from Satan, and most things that universally unite as coming from God.
I think part of what we are supposed to learn - is not just how to trust and have faith in God, but also how to trust and have faith in one another... The Spirit helps us in this, without the Spirit, we would have no way of knowing the heart of another... with the Spirit, occasionally we are given a small glimpse.
Last edited:
idea
Question Everything
I agree, that is a great analogy, although another way I like to think about is that the Spirit is always there underneath it all, but sometimes other things distract from it.
I like this quote:
"The inspiring influence of the Holy Spirit can be overcome or masked by strong emotions, such as anger, hate, passion, fear, or pride. When such influences are present, it is like trying to savor the delicate flavor of a grape while eating a jalapeño pepper. Both flavors are present, but one completely overpowers the other." ~ Scott
I think the delicate flavor of the Spirit is always there, you just have to release everything else in order to savor it.
Glad to have you back.
The Spirit of God encompasses the Spirit of Truth.
The Spirit of God also encompasses the Spirit of Love.
Love and Truth are the primary and essential components of GOD.
Even better than feelings is to fully understand it in a technical way and to be proficient at it.
There are levels of tests and challenges that are beyond feelings alone.
I said that it is something people must be willing to do if necessary.
For example, Joseph Smith wouldn't have had the fortitude that he did if he was more worried about not making waves than he was about truly understanding God.
The quality I am advocating is the very basis upon which a man who has this nature would make whatever discoveries are necessary and restore everything as it should be.
If everyone followed the admonition you are giving, we would all still be Catholics.
Don't forget that the truth is like a sword that divides. God's word divides the light from the dark.
You may want to rephrase your statement from "anything" to take that into consideration.
That's called leaning upon the arm of flesh and we are not supposed to do that.
We listen to one another, show respect for one another, but at the end of the day everyone needs to get their directions from God.
Yes, and as you become more and more proficient you get to a point where you can decipher many things an ordinary person would not think possible.
Last edited:
idea
Question Everything
I agree, God would never allow the Spirit to lead us astray as you previously suggested, because it is the Spirit of Truth.
I think faith and trust is better than relying on our own understanding (although I agree it is good to search and ponder about things). God often asks technically illogical things of us - like telling Moses to get water out of a rock (why not tell Moses to dig a well and get water that way?) We are sometimes asked to do illogical things in order to experience what faith and trust are. faith/trust cease to exist when you just act through logic. (I didn't do that because I trust you, I did it because it makes logical sense to me etc. etc.)
A few in my family are Catholics (I'm a convert, due to spiritual experiences). Yes, the point is to follow God's Spirit - to follow your feelings, and not be afraid of what you feel.
leaning on the arm of flesh includes leaning on your own arm, and your own understanding ... I have felt the Spirit while in the presence of the leaders within my church, I know that the Spirit does not bear false witness, and am grateful for God's servants.
1:38 whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
There are some things that you have to first act on faith in - it's only after the fact that you can look back, and understand why you were asked to do what you did.... perhaps we should start a new thread on what faith is?
here - http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/139311-faith-things-not-seen.html#post3096261
there's a faith thread.
Last edited:
That is what I touched on in my post.
If you pray and ask the Father to give you a witness that Thomas S. Monson is His Lord's Anointed Prophet, then that is what shall be done for you.
And, it shall be done whether or not Thomas S. Monson is functioning as His Lord's Anointed Prophet.
The truth of the matter is, you asked for a witness of that and didn't bother to ask to only receive that witness if it was in fact true or not.
This is why we are cautioned to be careful about what we ask for because if we ask amiss it could turn to our condemnation.
I'm not saying we just rely upon our own understanding.
I'm saying we need to be disciplined so that we do not deceive ourselves by asking amiss.
I'm opening to your view an example of how we can request to have a witness in a way that will eventually result in very positive and confirming feelings and yet not actually be of any practical value.
I have not discounted feelings, faith, etc. They play an important role.
I said there are tests and challenges we could eventually face where feelings alone will not be sufficient to get us through them.
God's Spirit and personal feelings may or may not coincide.
And, as I said before, you are personally responsible to have the Holy Spirit confirm what they intended to say and what God intends for you to do about it.
Not doing this is either leaning upon your own flesh or making them flesh to lean on.
idea
Question Everything
You seem to have some issue with our current prophet, and are therefore assuming things about what others are and are not asking for, and in how they are asking to justify to yourself why so many people are having Spiritual confirmations about someone you personally disagree with. Like I said, I am a convert - just FYI, I did not ask, or want, the spiritual experience I was given. I went to the LDS church in order to fulfill an assignment for a college class, not to join any church... but I ended up joining the church. I repeat, I did not ask to receive a witness, God was not catering to any personal wishes on my part - Mine is more of a Saul/Paul conversion story, or the story of Alma the younger.
Personally, there have been many things that I have asked for, and received an answer of "no". We do not always get what we ask for. There are false Spirits out there that can lead you astray, but the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Truth, will never lead anyone astray. Asking for things that are amiss will usually just get you the silent treatment - I suppose if you are really stubborn, yes, God will give you what you want, but will give it with a warning (the story of how Joseph lost the manuscripts - he kept asking, even when he knew what the answer was - he bugged God until he got what he wanted, but after the first two answers, I think he knew his request was amiss...)
In any event, I have faith that the LDS church - though it is made of imperfect people - is being led by God. I feel the spirit with our local leaders, and I feel the spirit during general conference. Hinckley was a prophet of temples, Monson is a prophet of taking care of the poor. I think the current direction the church is heading is inspired and matches the needs of what is happening in the world today.
Last edited: