The greater good argument

[Rex]

Goes something like this:

Evils serve a purpose, and that purpose being a greater good achieved after the evil took place.

For example someone close to you dies, and you tell yourself that a greater good came out of this.

For an atheist I could see how one could say this, but for a theist to say this sounds weird to me because God could achieve that greater good without the evil.

What say you?

 

[michel]

Goes something like this:

Evils serve a purpose, and that purpose being a greater good achieved after the evil took place.

For example someone close to you dies, and you tell yourself that a greater good came out of this.

For an atheist I could see how one could say this, but for a theist to say this sounds weird to me because God could achieve that greater good without the evil.

What say you?

I think good often comes out of evil - if something dreadful happens, people are fired into trying to make sure there is no re-occurence -the Holocaust being an immediate example.

God could achieve good without evil, but then he'd be cutting out the middle man (ie humans)- so it would be a waste of his, and our time.

 

[Sunstone]

You can almost always find a silver lining in some evil, but that does not necessarily justify the evil. What, for instance, is a good enough silver lining to justify the Holocaust?

 

[Rex]

I think good often comes out of evil - if something dreadful happens, people are fired into trying to make sure there is no re-occurence -the Holocaust being an immediate example.

God could achieve good without evil, but then he'd be cutting out the middle man (ie humans)- so it would be a waste of his, and our time.

Why would you cut out the middle man?

If he could achieve it and is "all good" then letting evil happen would be against his attributes.

 

[jewscout]

i've used this analogy alot recently...
we are the writers...Hashem is the director, producer and editor

we often create the evil in this world, and HaShem will use that evil for His purposes...just as if we add to the goodness of this world He will, in turn, use that as well...

but then again i'm not His accountant so i don't get to see how the numbers will get crunched in the end...

 

[Green Gaia]

This is why terms like 'good' and 'bad' are subjective. What is good? What is bad? I perfer to think of everything is happening for a reason. Sometimes I don't like what happens, and would probably call that event 'bad' but what if that event had to take place for something good to happen later? Is that bad event still 'bad'?

 

[Sunstone]

We cannot know all the consequences of our actions. This presents a problem for any morality that is based on knowing the consequences of action.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

There is no hypothetical scene more worthy of digust and contempt than the picture of someone wandering through Dachau talking about some silver lining.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is why terms like 'good' and 'bad' are subjective.

The Armenian genocide was 'bad'.
Dachau wad 'bad'.
Buchenwald was 'bad'.
Rwanda was 'bad'.
Darfur was 'bad'.
The tsunami devastation was 'bad'.

And, in my personal opinion, to live with knowledge of such things and yet be capable of saying

"What is good? What is bad? I perfer to think of everything is happening for a reason."​

is reprehensibly 'bad'.

 

[Rex]

But is the means 'bad' or is the end 'bad', and which holds more weight?

 

[Pah]

There is no hypothetical scene more worthy of digust and contempt than the picture of someone wandering through Dachau talking about some silver lining.

Nor the sterile grounds at Dachau. There no "horror" present in the well kept, empty barracks area - even the ovens lack impact for me.

 

[Fluffy]

The Armenian genocide was 'bad'.
Dachau wad 'bad'.
Buchenwald was 'bad'.
Rwanda was 'bad'.
Darfur was 'bad'.
The tsunami devastation was 'bad'.

And, in my personal opinion, to live with knowledge of such things and yet be capable of saying

"What is good? What is bad? I perfer to think of everything is happening for a reason."​

is reprehensibly 'bad'.

Justify, objectively, why they are bad. Don't get me wrong, I believe they are bad as well. I also know this is a totally subjective view.

Goes something like this:

Evils serve a purpose, and that purpose being a greater good achieved after the evil took place.

For example someone close to you dies, and you tell yourself that a greater good came out of this.

For an atheist I could see how one could say this, but for a theist to say this sounds weird to me because God could achieve that greater good without the evil.

What say you?

I cannot reconcile the idea of an omnipotent being with evil either. But I do not see this as proof against God. Just an omnipotent one.

 

[michel]

Why would you cut out the middle man?

If he could achieve it and is "all good" then letting evil happen would be against his attributes.

But I can't see God as being in any way connected to the 'trivialities' (As I suppose they would be to him/it) of what is happening here on earth. We are not pawns on a chessboard for God to play with, with him manipulating our environment. If that was the case, God would be a pretty nasty manipulative guy - he surely would never have allowed tradjedies to occur.

I belive that we make our own destinies - the whole point of our existance is the choice element. When I was talking about the good that came out from the horrors of the holocaust, I was talking of the selfless devotion of those who fought Hitler- the world took sides, and those choices were individual. If God was to make the choices for us, then we would be redundant - to take an analogy, if I cheat in a game of chess playing against myself, there is no point in the game in the first place. I'm not explaining myself very well - but I hope that helps.

 

[Green Gaia]

The Armenian genocide was 'bad'.
Dachau wad 'bad'.
Buchenwald was 'bad'.
Rwanda was 'bad'.
Darfur was 'bad'.
The tsunami devastation was 'bad'.

And, in my personal opinion, to live with knowledge of such things and yet be capable of saying

"What is good? What is bad? I perfer to think of everything is happening for a reason."​

is reprehensibly 'bad'.

I was thinking of more personal events when I wrote that, Deut. (Like going through a divorce. It is painful at the time, but sometimes it's for the best.) Obviously I think genocide is bad.

 

[Nick Soapdish]

Obviously I think genocide is bad.

Is genocide always bad, or is there a splinter of subjectivity still?

Also, is pulling a baby off of railroad tracks before the train comes always good, or is there a hypothetical scenario in which it could be considered bad?

 

[skills101]

Is genocide always bad, or is there a splinter of subjectivity still?

Worthy of new thread!

 

[skills101]

I think good often comes out of evil - if something dreadful happens, people are fired into trying to make sure there is no re-occurence -the Holocaust being an immediate example.

Bah... But it has re-occurred hasn't it?

 

[painted wolf]

The Armenian genocide was 'bad'.
Dachau wad 'bad'.
Buchenwald was 'bad'.
Rwanda was 'bad'.
Darfur was 'bad'.

Each time something like this happins we have the chance to step back and look at the evil we do... we can take that evil and choose not to let it happin agian.
To me the real evil and horror of it, is that we havent done that, infact too often we try to ignore it all together.
(and by 'we' I mean the species as a whole)

The tsunami devastation was 'bad'.

Bad but not evil... it was a natural event and sadly inevitable. Just as it is inevitable that it will happin again someday. We can only hope to minimize the damage and do our best to help the survivors. In that respect our species has finally had a blow that brought us as a whole together with the intent to do good. One brief shining moment out of a darkness.

wa:do

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Each time something like this happins we have the chance to step back and look at the evil we do... we can take that evil and choose not to let it happin agian.

How very, very special.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is genocide always bad, or is there a splinter of subjectivity still?

What disgusting sophomoric crap. Perhaps you could copy your question on poster board and visit the Holocaust museum. I would love to be there to greet you.