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The global flood and hydrodynamic sorting

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Hydrodynamic sorting largely deals with the very well-establised law of gravity. If a global flood occurred, fossils and sediments would had to have been sorted in certain ways. It is quite obvious even to an amateur like me that fossils and sediments are not sorted like they would have been sorted if a global flood occurred. This would of course be much more obvious to most geologists, just as naturalistic or theistic evolution is obvious to over 99% of experts in the U.S. according to one study.

The following is from Glenn Morton, who is a Christian geophysicist:

Global Flood

Glenn Morton said:
The fossils are too well sorted. I am indebted to R.S. Beal Jr. for reminding me of this. Conodonts are microscopic fossils which are the "teeth" of an ancient animal. The shape of these conodonts change with each succeeding geologic level are unique. In the Grand Canyon, in the Redwall limestone, is divided vertically into the Whitmore Wash, Thunder Springs, Mooney Falls and Horseshoe Mesa members. In each of these layers a peculiar shaped and unique conodont is found. A conodont named Gnathodes typicus is found in the Whitmore Wash member and not in the other layers. Scoliognathus anchoralis and Dolignathus latus are unique to the Thunder Springs member. Gnathodus texanus is found in the Mooney Falls member only and the conodont Taphrognathus variarus is limited to the Horseshoe Mesa member.

Conodont are extremely small and microscopes must be used to examine them. How in the world could a global flood so perfectly sort these tiny particles into layers that only contain conodonts of certain shapes? The turbulence of the flood was supposed to be so great and yet world-wide, microscopic animals are sorted vertically through the various layers of the geologic column.

In the Gulf of Mexico, when we drill wells, we always find the same vertical order of microscopic planktonic foraminifera, nannoplankton, and benthic foraminifera. I know that a peculiar shape of planktonic foram, Glob Menardi changed its coiling direction at the same geologic horizon as the last occurrence of D. brouweri "A", and the benthic foram, Cristellaria S. I know that microscopic benthonic Trimosina A is found above this level and the microscopic calcarious nannoplankton Discoaster A is below this level. Each of these fossil forms have a unique shape and are easily distinguishable. How could the flood so perfectly sort these small uniquely shaped creatures into vertical layers?

Other fossils are equally well sorted but not on the characteristics that global Flood
advocates suggest. I use some rather old books for this, because it illustrates how long ago this information was known. This is important because as long as this has been known, Christian apologists never talk about ammonites in their books on the Flood.

Ammonites were a nautiloid-like animal that lived in the Late Paleozoic and Mesozoic seas as the animal grew, it excreted a shell wall behind the animal but inside the shell which was attached to the outer shell. The junction of this interior partition with the external shell left a suture pattern on the exterior of the shell. This suture pattern was constant for each species and was constant for each individual throughout its life. A small individual had the same sutures as a large individuals of the same species. This is important because global flood advocates believe that the fossils are sorted according to the laws of hydrodynamical sorting. These laws, Stoke's Law and variations of it, would predict that the ammonites would be sorted by size, with the biggest ones on bottom and the smallest ones on top. (See Potter et al, p. 9)

Henry Morris, an expert on hydrodynamics (1967, p. 40) wrote:

"The hydrodynamic sorting action of moving water is quite efficient, so that each stratum would tend to contain an assemblage of fossils of similar shapes and sizes."

Now, what do we find? We find that the ammonites are not sorted by size in the geologic column, but are sorted by suture shape!

The same sized organism with different suture shapes are found at different stratigraphic levels. In the Jurassic ammonite zones are defined nearly world wide based upon the different sutures of the animals.

One is correct to say that the flood could not sort everything perfectly, yet if the geologic column was built up by a 1 year flood, that is exactly what you must say happened. Ammonites were deposited in a strict order based upon suture shape. Since the suture shape could not have made that much difference in the sorting process, the only conclusion is that the ammonites were not deposited in one big catastrophe.

The only reasonable explanation is that the layers were laid down over a very, very long time period and the ammonites which lived in one time period died out before the next and were replaced.

Morton grew up accepting the global flood story, but after conducting years of scientific research, concluded that a global flood did not occur. He tells that story in an article at http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm.

Evangelical Christian geologist Davis Young also rejects the global flood theory, as do most other Christian geologists. He has an interesting article at http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p82.htm.
 
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painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Some of the most fun debates happen between Young Earth and Old Earth creationists on the subject of geology.

wa:do
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
Hydrodynamic sorting largely deals with the very well-establised law of gravity. If a global flood occurred, fossils and sediments would had to have been sorted in certain ways. It is quite obvious even to an amateur like me that fossils and sediments are not sorted like they would have been sorted if a global flood occurred. This would of course be much more obvious to most geologists, just as naturalistic or theistic evolution is obvious to over 99% of experts in the U.S. according to one study.
Considering too that within these layers of sediment is evidence of forest fires and other events which couldn't possibly happen during a flood.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
the written history of different cultures around the word proves there was no break in their society

and thus the flood myths are just that, mythology.



to corner these blokes, one only needs to ask for then to provide a date, then imediately asked why teh Chineese have writing a year before and after said date.
 

Eliu

Member
@agnostic


Hello!
At the other side... a “geologic column”, an evolutionist assumption, which is almost never respected by all layers all over the world (it happens only for 0,4% of Earth's surface).
Also we can observe inverted order for the strata. And so on.
If layers don't respect hydrodynamic sorting, they are less respecting evolutionary model. It is respected only by evolutionists, by faith, not by real evidences.
But there is another point: hydrodynamic sorting will be respected if all water behaved in the same way on whole Earth.
This is just an “ideal” assumption and a false one.
If we talk about a global Flood, we talk about... a global Flood.
A Flood is not calm as lakes in fables.
It has never been observed a “quiet flood”. We can observe only “rough floods”, which are also devastating, in local scale.
Speaking about global scale... it's obvious we can't observe an ideal behavior, ideal as fables' lakes!
God bless you.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
@agnostic


Hello!
At the other side... a “geologic column”, an evolutionist assumption, which is almost never respected by all layers all over the world (it happens only for 0,4% of Earth's surface).
Also we can observe inverted order for the strata. And so on.
If layers don't respect hydrodynamic sorting, they are less respecting evolutionary model. It is respected only by evolutionists, by faith, not by real evidences.
But there is another point: hydrodynamic sorting will be respected if all water behaved in the same way on whole Earth.
This is just an “ideal” assumption and a false one.
If we talk about a global Flood, we talk about... a global Flood.
A Flood is not calm as lakes in fables.
It has never been observed a “quiet flood”. We can observe only “rough floods”, which are also devastating, in local scale.
Speaking about global scale... it's obvious we can't observe an ideal behavior, ideal as fables' lakes!
God bless you.

scientifically a global flood never happened

Historically, a global flood never happened.


The flood fails when I ask you for a exact date the flood happened., Had there been a flood you would be able to place a date to when it happened.

and no matter what date you put, I can show you for a fact there was no break in any society or culture at that exact time.




The flood is known mythology, that is not even unique to Israelites. This noah legend is a Mesopotamian legend in origin which in place is a Sumerian epic of Ziasudra, who was a real king and there was a real regional river flood, where a man went down the river on a barge with livestock on board.


It would do you well to learn real history, and learn that you do not replace science with theology if you want the truth
 

Eliu

Member

@outhouse

Hello!
Were youthere, to confirm that Global Flood never happened?
Ofcourse, no.


Appearanceof written documents in post Flood dates, older trees not older than Flooddate, of course means nothing.
Nothingnew!


Just sayit never happened, does not make real it never happened.
Evidencesspeak by themselves!
Godbless!
 

Krok

Active Member
@outhouse Hello!
Were youthere, to confirm that Global Flood never happened?
Ofcourse, no.
I wasn't, but the rocks were. They confirm that a global flood didn't happen.
Appearanceof written documents in post Flood dates,....
What's a "Post Flood dates"? Please be specific.
...older trees not older than Flooddate, of course means nothing. Nothingnew!
What is "flooddate"? Please be specific.
...Just sayit never happened, does not make real it never happened.
Could you please be specific on the flood?
Evidencesspeak by themselves!
Yes, I know. That's why no evidence for a global found has ever been found in my country.
Godbless!
May the FSM touch you with a Holy Noodly Appendage. May you lie less after that.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to Eliu: What is your academic background in geology? In your opinion, do you know enough about geology to have a formal Internet debate with a geologist about the global flood? If so, I will try to find a geologist who wants to debate you.
 

Krok

Active Member
@agnostic Hello! At the other side... a “geologic column”,..."
Geologic column, from the Glossary of Geology*: (a) A composite diagram that shows in a single column the subdivisions of part or all of geologic time or the sequence of stratigraphic units of a given locality or region (the oldest at the bottom and the youngest at the top, with dips adjusted to the horizontal) so arranged as to indicate their relations to the subdivisions of geologic and their relative positions to each other. See also: columnar section. (b) The vertical or chronologic arrangement or sequence of rock units portrayed in a geologic column. See also geologic section.--- Syn. stratigraphic column.
... an evolutionist assumption,....
Geologists describe the arrangement of strata. No assumptions involved. Just descriptions of what is found. Geologists deal with rocks. Evolutionists deal with biology.
... which is almost never respected by all layers all over the world (it happens only for 0,4% of Earth's surface).
"Layers" don't respect anything. They're there. Geologists describe the way "layers" are found and their relationship to each other.
... Also we can observe inverted order for the strata. And so on.
Who are the "we" you talk of? Definitely not you. Geologists can describe the "inverted order for the strata". How do you think they know it's "inverted" in the first place?
... If layers don't respect hydrodynamic sorting, they are less respecting evolutionary model.
Err, all layers, whether "hydrodynamicly sorted or not", do follow the laws of gravity.
... It is respected only by evolutionists,.....
Geologists study rocks. Evolutionists study life.
... by faith, not by real evidences.
That's strange, as geologists actually study rocks. Empirical, verifiable evidence. No faith involved. Rocks are there for all to see.
... But there is another point: hydrodynamic sorting will be respected if all water behaved in the same way on whole Earth.
This is vague. All matter "respect" gravity. No choice involved. And actually, all water do "behave" the same way "on the whole earth". Water always follow natural laws.
... This is just an “ideal” assumption and a false one.
Very vague. What's the "ideal" assumption?
If we talk about a global Flood, we talk about... a global Flood.
No, you talk about wishful thinking.
A Flood is not calm as lakes in fables.
Your point is? We have observed lots and lots of floods and lots and lots of lakes.
It has never been observed a “quiet flood”. We can observe only “rough floods”, which are also devastating, in local scale.
Yes, and?
Speaking about global scale... it's obvious we can't observe an ideal behavior, ideal as fables' lakes!
What, do you think that lakes and floods are fables? Unfortunately for you, a "Global Flood" as described in some religious texts is the only fable involved.
God bless you.
May the FSM touch you with one of His Holy Noodly Appendages. May you lie less after that.

*Gary, M., Mcafee Jr, R. and C.L. Wolf, C.L. (Eds). Glossary of Geology. American Geological Institute. Fourth printing 1977.
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Were youthere, to confirm that Global Flood never happened?

where were you to say it did happen?

what REAL evidence do you have in support of such a event???

Evidencesspeak by themselves!


yes and all the evidence points to a global flood as being 100% mythology

there is no credible evidence

and what we are seeing is that the people that want to debate for a global flood are usually lacking knowledge in every aspect regarding a global flood
 

Eliu

Member
Message to Eliu: What is your academic background in geology? In your opinion, do you know enough about geology to have a formal Internet debate with a geologist about the global flood? If so, I will try to find a geologist who wants to debate you.


Just speak about Creationism and geologists will debate with you.
God bless you.
 
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