The Forgotten Kingdom

[nPeace]

How does Rev 21:1-4 speak about 2 classes of Christians?
How does Daniel 7:13,14 in conjunction with Genesis 22:18, and Genesis 40:10 speak of 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly calling and one with an earthly calling?
How does Mathew 6:9, 10, and Ephesians 1:3-14, in conjunction with Philippians 2:9, 10 tell us about those 2 classes of Christians?
I ask the same about Psalms 37:9-11, the prophecies in Isaiah 11, and Isaiah 65:17-26 also.

(Revelation 7:17) because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

(Revelation 21:3, 4) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Same group, you agree?
If you don't agree, could you please state why not.

(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

Whose rulership is being described here? Is it not Christ Jesus? Who are the king's subjects? Is it not people of all nations. and languages?

Drop down to verse 27.
(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’
The kingdom in heaven belongs to the saints - the 144,000, but did you notice what else belongs to them?
The grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens
That's clear, is it not.
They rule the whole earth. Agreed?

(Genesis 22:18) And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.
That's self explanatory.
However, to be clear, the promise made to Abraham involved bringing all mankind back to his original purpose. That was the reason for his promise of a king that he would appoint to do that. (See Psalms 2)
Hence...
Did I say Genesis 40:10? Sorry. I meant Genesis 49:10
The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
The rulership rightly belongs to Christ, God's anointed king, as referenced in Psalm 2.
This is stated also in 1 Corinthians 15.
Particularly, verses 20-28

Spoiler: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28

20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Notice that God subjected all things to Christ (except himself, of course), in order that Christ would completely remove all of God's and man's enemies, including death, and once that is accomplished, Jesus hands the kingdom over to his father, who then rules over everyone - both in heaven and earth - just as it was before Adam sinned.
So everything is brought back to God's original purpose.- A family in heaven, and a family in paradise on earth - all faithful to God. all living forever.
What a wonderful prospect. Don't you think?
This is what all the religions of this world fail to teach the people.

Jesus taught his followers to pray,
Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth. Matthew 6:10

God expressed his purpose in Ephesians 1:9, 10 ... by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him

(Philippians 2:9, 10) 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend - of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground. . .
Those under the ground refer to the dead that will rise... of course.

Do you agree that God's express will is to have a family in heaven, and on earth. That it is his will?

All the other scriptures agree.
Psalms 37:9-11, Isaiah 11, and Isaiah 65 (from verse 17) are all promises of the life to come for the meek, who will 'bless themselves', on the earth... forever.

Just because the earth is mentioned does not tell us there will be 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly calling and the other with an earthly calling.

Agreed. however, the earth is not just mentioned.
Do you find it is just mentioned, or are there specific details given in the scriptures about it?

It is plain in Revelations that the New Jerusalem is coming down to earth and that God will dwell on earth with His people. Paradise on earth is a Biblical thing, not a JW thing that only they can see in the Bible.
The question I have asked is about the JW notion of 2 classes of Christians. Where does the Bible teach that?

Where did you read that the New Jerusalem is coming down to earth?
I did not read that.
What I read is this...
(Revelation 21:2) . . .I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Does the translation you are reading say the same thing... not the exact words, of course?

The verse says, it comes down from God, and is prepared as a bride to meet her husband.
What is New Jerusalem, and who is her bridegroom?

If you say the New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ - the bridegroom, I fully agree.
(Revelation 19:7) Let us rejoice and be overjoyed and give him glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself.
Any idea whom the bride of Christ is though?

Spoiler: The lamb's wife

(Revelation 21:9-21) 9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God 11 and having the glory of God. Its radiance was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone shining crystal clear. 12 It had a great and lofty wall and had 12 gates with 12 angels at the gates, and on the gates were inscribed the names of the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 On the east were three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. 14 The wall of the city also had 12 foundation stones, and on them were the 12 names of the 12 apostles of the Lamb. 15 Now the one who was speaking with me was holding a golden reed as a measure in order to measure the city and its gates and its wall. 16 And the city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as its width. And he measured the city with the reed, 12,000 stadia; its length and width and height are equal. 17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits according to a man’s measure, at the same time an angel’s measure. 18 Now the wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold like clear glass. 19 The foundations of the city wall were adorned with every sort of precious stone: the first foundation was jasper, the second sapphire, the third chalcedony, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth sardonyx, the sixth sardius, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh hyacinth, the twelfth amethyst. 21 Also, the 12 gates were 12 pearls; each one of the gates was made of one pearl. And the main street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.

Was your answer the 144,000 who rule with Christ in heaven?

Did you see how all the pieces fall into place.
The virgins in Revelation 14. The marriage to the lamb.
(Mark 2:19) So Jesus said to them: “While the bridegroom is with them, the friends of the bridegroom have no reason to fast, do they? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.
(2 Corinthians 11:2) . . .For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised you in marriage to one husband that I might present you as a chaste virgin to the Christ.


The picture is quite lovely, when you put all the pieces in place... correctly.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why do you say that the sheep of Matt 25:31-45 are the other class of Christian, the ones who are not Christ's brothers?

Just read the text....
Did Jesus say this group of sheep, were his brothers? Or rather, that they did good things to his brothers?

 

[Brian2]

Just read the text....
Did Jesus say this group of sheep, were his brothers? Or rather, that they did good things to his brothers?

That does not tell us that they are other Christians. The passage says that they are the people of the nations. To me it seems that they are probably not Christians at all.
There is another similar passage in another gospel and some of those who are goats do say that they have done wonderful things in the name of Jesus, but He still says that He did not know them. Apart from this there is no indication of there being Christians amongst them.
I would presume that all true Christians have been whisked away at the rapture at this stage and avoid the judgement because they have been saved by faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.
So my conclusion is that there is no reason to see the people in this parable as Christians at all, let alone a different class of Christians, as the JWs claim.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That does not tell us that they are other Christians. The passage says that they are the people of the nations. To me it seems that they are probably not Christians at all.
There is another similar passage in another gospel and some of those who are goats do say that they have done wonderful things in the name of Jesus, but He still says that He did not know them. Apart from this there is no indication of there being Christians amongst them.
I would presume that all true Christians have been whisked away at the rapture at this stage and avoid the judgement because they have been saved by faith in the work of Jesus on the cross.
So my conclusion is that there is no reason to see the people in this parable as Christians at all, let alone a different class of Christians, as the JWs claim.

They call Jesus, “Lord.” And they did good things, “to” Jesus’ brothers.
Of course they are Christians!

And your reference to Matthew 7:21-23...these ones are calling themselves Christians. But Jesus emphatically denies them.

Question: Do you pray before you post? To me (just an observation), it seems you don’t.

 

[Brian2]

They call Jesus, “Lord.” And they did good things, “to” Jesus’ brothers.
Of course they are Christians!

And your reference to Matthew 7:21-23...these ones are calling themselves Christians. But Jesus emphatically denies them.

Question: Do you pray before you post? To me (just an observation), it seems you don’t.

Everyone at that time is going to call Jesus Lord.
Anyone can do good things for Christians but I don't think that Jesus reference to brothers and sisters necessarily refers to Christians. Jesus may have been referring to the sheep from the nations, those who have not got faith in Jesus but have nonetheless been judged righteous enough for the Kingdom of God by their good deeds.
Jesus can extend salvation to whomsoever He want at that time. We all must go through Jesus to get to the Father.
Where is the gospel of faith in Jesus for salvation for this other class of Christians? Is their salvation solely based on how righteous they have been? That sounds like a different gospel for this other class of Christians.
I think the whole thing really can be resolved by looking at whom Jesus describes them as being. They are described as being "all the nations". Because the good ones in them are referred to as sheep does not mean they are Christians, it is just that the nations' people have been divided as someone divided the sheep and the goats.
The Christians have all been grafted into Israel and are a royal priest hood, a holy nation (1Peter 2:5-9) who live as the Kingdom of God in the midst of the nations.
So far I cannot say that I see evidence for the "other sheep" in the New Testament. It seems all to be based on the WT's very iffy interpretation of the 144,000 of Revelations and so the rest of the New Testament and OT have to be interpreted to fit that 144,000 interpretation even if the passages by themselves do not give any indication of 2 classes of Christians and so most of the New Testament only applying to the 144,000.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@Brian2 , kings “rule over” subjects. So not every Christian is going to be a king (they have to be “chosen”, to be so)....the majority of them, will be Christ’s (and his king/priest/brothers’) subjects.


A kingdom/government always has subjects; the minority rule over the majority.

BTW, these 144,000 king/priests are said to have Christ’s “name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” -Revelation 14:1

Question: Do you think they’d need to at least know what his Father’s name is?

 

[Brian2]

@Brian2 , kings “rule over” subjects. So not every Christian is going to be a king (they have to be “chosen”, to be so)....the majority of them, will be Christ’s (and his king/priest/brothers’) subjects.


A kingdom/government always has subjects; the minority rule over the majority.

BTW, these 144,000 king/priests are said to have Christ’s “name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” -Revelation 14:1

Question: Do you think they’d need to at least know what his Father’s name is?

Kings rule over subjects and so you are saying that the subjects have to be other Christians. This is according to the WT theology but not necessarily the Bible.
What if all the Christians were in the New Jerusalem and the subjects were the nations, those from the nations who were not Christians but who have been given mercy by Jesus anyway?

As for the name or names on the foreheads, if Jesus, when He returned from earth, was given the name above all names, do you think that means that He shares the same name as His Father?

 

[Brian2]

Tell me if you agree with me.

Yes I agree, parts of Revelations are easy enough to understand and other parts aren't. Parts are symbolic and parts are literal and it is easy to understand some of the symbolism and not so easy to understand other parts of it.

We also know the scroll is symbolic because these are heavenly things - not earthly, but John is explaining what is a vision in heaven.
Coming however to verses 9, and 10, what do we notice?
for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth
Everything is completely literal. They are describing reality, as it is, or was.
These are just a few examples.

Yes easy enough to understand here.

* Returning to the number seven...
Recall, in Revelation 12:3 the dragon has 7 heads. Symbolic? We can agree, Yes. Why? The angel does not explain the number in relation to anything specific, but rather follows the same consistent pattern.
We know that the dragon represents one - the Devil. The seven heads represents something which the angel does not explain or relate to.

On the other hand, when we read Revelation 13:1, we see the same number used in describing the wild beast.
Symbolic? No. Why not?
This time the number is used in relation to something specific, which the angel explains -
We have to go to Revelation 17:7-14 to see that. The angel explains there.

With those things in mind...

Two places help us to see that the 144,000 is not a symbolic number.
Revelation 7:1-9
The angel mentions the 144,000 in relation to... verse 3 - the slaves of God. Specific.
Hopping down to verse 9, the number of slaves of God is specific in relation to the number of the other sheep, or the great crowd / multitude.
One can be numbered, the other cannot. That is specific.
Thus both the number 144,000 in verse 4, and the unnumbered great multitude in verse 9 are literal.

The other place, Revelation 14:1... again the angel uses the number in relation to the slaves of God, taken from the earth, and being with the lamb.
The symbolism in verse 1 to 4 does not automatically make everything symbolic.
They are literally with the lamb, where he is - Mount Zion (Heaven). They were literally taken from the earth, and they literally followed the Lamb. They stuck with him.

It seems that much of the WT theology is built around it's understanding of Revelations. This seems to be a pretty flimsy way to build a theology,,,,,,,,,,,,especially if that understanding and subsequent theology is not supported by the rest of the New Testament. There is certainly nothing clear in the rest of the New Testament to uphold the WT position of 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly calling and ruling over others with and earthly calling and who remain on earth. It's sort of a backward way to go about establishing anything and end up with a New Testament which does not even apply to the bulk of Christians even when
passages in the New Testament that the WT says apply only to the 144,000, are aimed at everyone, all Christians.

A verse in the Bible that helps us relate these scriptures, is Luke 22:28-30. There we see that the slaves - the first-fruits - rule as kings with him, and they rule over the "twelve tribes of Israel".
Notice that early on that symbolic expression was used.
We know this is not the literal nation of Israel, from the scriptures. Hence, we get a vivid picture of what is taking place.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Actually I read that they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel,,,,,,,,,,,,and I presume this will be together with others and Jesus. Why do you think this is not the literal nation of Israel? Is there a specific reason for that idea or is it just that you believe what the WT tells you about the passage.

The small number Jesus chose to rule with him in heaven, number 144,000. They are taken from the earth, out of all people and tribes and languages. They are the first fruits from the millions of faithful ones on earth. these millions of faithful ones, include the great crowd who wash their robes in the blood of the lamb - obviously symbolic of exercising faith in Christ's shed blood, and they receive everlasting life, which is seen from the fact that they are shepherded (ruled) by king Jesus and the 144,000 to waters of life, in the paradise earth.
How do we know?

What I am asking is how you know what you are saying. How do you know that the firstfruits refers to the 144,000? How do you know they are taken out of the earth? Why doesn't "redeemed from the earth" just mean that they have been saved by Jesus? Why does "firstfruits" only refer to the 144,000? (Certainly the JWs, after 1800 or so years cannot be seen as "firstfruits")
Why do you say that the "other sheep" get everlasting life and are deprived of anything else under the New Covenant, and in fact are not even in the New Covenant?
It all just seems to me to be that you are believing what the WT tells you to believe.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

As for the name or names on the foreheads, if Jesus, when He returned from earth, was given the name above all names, do you think that means that He shares the same name as His Father?

No. (You’re really stretchin’ arent ya?)

He was “given” the name above all given names....no one ‘gave’ Jehovah His name!

Jesus was also “given” all authority. Do you think that includes authority over his Father? His God (John 20:17)? Not according to 1 Corinthians 15 27. In fact, Paul said it’s “clear / obvious” that it doesn’t include the Father, his God.

But apparently, it’s not that “clear” to you...it usually isn’t, to trinitarians.

 

[nPeace]

Yes I agree, parts of Revelations are easy enough to understand and other parts aren't. Parts are symbolic and parts are literal and it is easy to understand some of the symbolism and not so easy to understand other parts of it.


Yes easy enough to understand here.

Great!

It seems that much of the WT theology is built around it's understanding of Revelations. This seems to be a pretty flimsy way to build a theology,,,,,,,,,,,,especially if that understanding and subsequent theology is not supported by the rest of the New Testament.

Not at all.
Revelation needs to be understood in light of other scriptures actually.

There is certainly nothing clear in the rest of the New Testament to uphold the WT position of 2 classes of Christians, one with a heavenly calling and ruling over others with and earthly calling and who remain on earth. It's sort of a backward way to go about establishing anything and end up with a New Testament which does not even apply to the bulk of Christians even when
passages in the New Testament that the WT says apply only to the 144,000, are aimed at everyone, all Christians.

Interesting.
Your statement suggest that you know that there are not two destinations, or two groups that make up one flock, so let's look at that then.
I posted a number of scriptures from both the Hebrew scriptures, and the Christian Greek scriptures, and you skipped over all of them - including questions I asked you - with nothing to say. Why is that?

Please help me to appreciate how those don't support the teachings in the WT in accord with the Bible.
Please don't skip any of them. I really want you to point out the errors, and provide the correction. Let's step through them one by one.

The Greek scriptures are in blue, so that you can clearly see they are there. The Hebrew texts in red.
My questions to you are in solid or bold orange font. They are important.

#1
(Revelation 7:17) because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

(Revelation 21:3, 4) 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Do you agree these texts refer to the same group?
If you don't agree, could you please state why not.

#2
(Daniel 7:14) And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.

Whose rulership is being described here? Is it not Christ Jesus? Who are the king's subjects? Is it not people of all nations. and languages?

Drop down to verse 27.
(Daniel 7:27) “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

The kingdom in heaven belongs to the saints - the 144,000. Do you agree? If not, why not.
Did you notice what else belongs to them?
The grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens
That's clear, is it not.
According to these scriptures, they rule the whole earth. Do you agreed?

#3
(Genesis 22:18) And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.
That's self explanatory.
However, to be clear, the promise made to Abraham involved bringing all mankind back to his original purpose. That was the reason for his promise of a king that he would appoint to do that. (See Psalms 2)
Hence... Genesis 49:10
The scepter will not depart from Judah, neither the commander’s staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong.
The rulership rightly belongs to Christ, God's anointed king, as referenced in Psalm 2. Do you agree?

This is stated also in 1 Corinthians 15.
Particularly, 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
Notice that God subjected all things to Christ (except himself, of course), in order that Christ would completely remove all of God's and man's enemies, including death, and once that is accomplished, Jesus hands the kingdom over to his father, who then rules over everyone - both in heaven and earth - just as it was before Adam sinned.
So everything is brought back to God's original purpose.- A family in heaven, and a family in paradise on earth - all faithful to God. all living forever.
Is there anything you disagree with here? Could you please explain what you disagree with, and how it is not what scripture says?

This is what all the religions of this world fail to teach the people.
Could you also please tell me how what I said in the post here, and here, are not scriptural?
You can take your time. There is no rush.

#4
Jesus taught his followers to pray,
Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth. Matthew 6:10

God expressed his purpose in Ephesians 1:9, 10 ... by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him

(Philippians 2:9, 10) 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend - of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground. . .
Those under the ground refer to the dead that will rise... of course.

Do you agree that God's express will is to have a family in heaven, and on earth. That it is his will?

#5
(Luke 12:32) Have no fear, little flock, for your Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom.

(Luke 22:28-30) 28 “However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.

(2 Corinthians 5:1) For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.

(Philippians 3:20, 21) 20 But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.

(2 Timothy 2:12) . . .if we go on enduring, we will also rule together as kings; if we deny, he will also deny us. . .

Do you agree that the scriptures say Jesus chose a small group of persons to be kings with him in the everlasting heavenly kingdom?

(Hebrews 10:19, 20) 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh,
(Hebrews 9:24) For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, so that he now appears before God on our behalf.

Do you also agree that the scriptures say Christ's flesh - his sacrificial death - opened entry into that heavenly kingdom?

(1 Corinthians 15:20-23) 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man. 22 For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence.

According to the scriptures, Christ is the firstfruits to the kingdom - i.e. the first raised to the heavenly kingdom. Do you agree, or disagree? If you disagree, please explain the scripture.


#6
All the other scriptures agree.
Psalms 37:9-11, Isaiah 11, and Isaiah 65 (from verse 17) are all promises of the life to come for the meek, who will 'bless themselves', on the earth... forever.

Do you disagree? Please explain why.

 

[nPeace]

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Actually I read that they will judge the 12 tribes of Israel,,,,,,,,,,,,and I presume this will be together with others and Jesus. Why do you think this is not the literal nation of Israel? Is there a specific reason for that idea or is it just that you believe what the WT tells you about the passage.

Foremost is the question, what do you mean by you presume this will be together with others and Jesus? Where does your presumption come from, your idea, or scripture?

We follow the scriptures, which the WT is in line with.
We know from scripture that the nation of Israel rejected the Messiah - Christ Jesus.
For this, the nation in turn were rejected.


(Matthew 23:37-39) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her - how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”


(Luke 21:20) However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near.

(Acts 18:5, 6) 5 When, now, both Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began to be intensely occupied with the word, witnessing to the Jews to prove that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But after they kept on opposing him and speaking abusively, he shook out his garments and said to them: “Let your blood be on your own heads. I am clean. From now on I will go to people of the nations.”


(Acts 13:45-48) 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began blasphemously contradicting the things Paul was saying. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas boldly said to them: “It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you. Since you are rejecting it and do not judge yourselves worthy of everlasting life, look! we turn to the nations. 47 For Jehovah has commanded us in these words: ‘I have appointed you as a light of nations, for you to be a salvation to the ends of the earth.’” 48 When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of Jehovah, and all those who were rightly disposed for everlasting life became believers.


We know from scripture that the Gentiles are not Israel, yet they were grafted in with faithful individual Jews, which thus became Israel - not the nation of Jews, but a new nation - the Israel of God.

(Galatians 6:15, 16) 15 For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation is. 16 As for all those who walk orderly by this rule of conduct, peace and mercy be upon them, yes, upon the Israel of God. (Romans 9:6-8)

You will need to read the entire book of Romans, if you are unfamiliar with the fact that persons were declared righteous, not by law, but by faith, as was the case with Abraham.

Gentiles were able to come into that arrangement because.... Christ, by means of his sacrifice, broke down the wall which barred them off.

Spoiler: Please read the scripture here

(Ephesians 2:11-18) 11 Therefore keep bearing in mind that formerly YOU were people of the nations as to flesh; “uncircumcision” YOU were called by that which is called “circumcision” made in the flesh with hands - 12 that YOU were at that particular time without Christ, alienated from the state of Israel and strangers to the covenants of the promise, and YOU had no hope and were without God in the world. 13 But now in union with Christ Jesus YOU who were once far off have come to be near by the blood of the Christ. 14 For he is our peace, he who made the two parties one and destroyed the wall in between that fenced them off. 15 By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace; 16 and that he might fully reconcile both peoples in one body to God through the torture stake, because he had killed off the enmity by means of himself. 17 And he came and declared the good news of peace to YOU, the ones far off, and peace to those near, 18 because through him we, both peoples, have the approach to the Father by one spirit.

If you are unfamiliar with the circumcision issue, you will need to read the entire chapter of Acts 15.
However, after making clear that God includes Gentiles, and thus the law was not binding on the Christians, James said... “Men, brothers, hear me. Symeon has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old.’ (Acts 15:13-18) (1 Peter 2:8-10)

What I am asking is how you know what you are saying. How do you know that the firstfruits refers to the 144,000? How do you know they are taken out of the earth? Why doesn't "redeemed from the earth" just mean that they have been saved by Jesus? Why does "firstfruits" only refer to the 144,000? (Certainly the JWs, after 1800 or so years cannot be seen as "firstfruits")

We use the scriptures Brian. That's how and why we know.

Why do you say that the "other sheep" get everlasting life and are deprived of anything else under the New Covenant, and in fact are not even in the New Covenant?
It all just seems to me to be that you are believing what the WT tells you to believe.

Could you rephrase the question please. I don't understand what you are saying, or asking.

 

[Neuropteron]

How do you know that is speaking of only the 144,000?
Do you know that the word translated "over" can also be translated as "on"?
In the translation I looked up it said that some manuscripts have "they reign". Do you think that could be the correct one considering the following quote?
Romans 5:17 "For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!"
The Christians in Peter's day were a holy nation and a royal priesthood after all.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Maybe this is what Jesus meant when He said that the Kingdom of God is amongst you.
Luke 17:20 "The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. 21Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is, or ‘There it is. For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
When I read parables of the Kingdom it does seem to have been on earth from the time of Jesus and to grow from that point on.
Matt 13:31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

33 He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds of flour until it worked all through the dough.”

Do you think that Jesus has been King over this nation of priests on earth from the time He ascended and received the Kingdom from the Ancient of Days as in Daniel 7:13,14 ?

 

[Neuropteron]

How do you know that is speaking of only the 144,000?
Do you know that the word translated "over" can also be translated as "on"?
?

The NT Greek word in question ("upon" or "over") is epi

Your half right, yes it can be translated "on" and sometimes is, that doesn't means its the right way to translate epi.
Considering the context Ishould be translated "over"
(Rotherham) Revelation 5:10 And didst make them, unto our God, a kingdom and priests,--and they reign on [epi] the earth.
(Darby) Revelation 5:10 and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over [epi] the earth.
The question is: what does epi mean?
Well, NT Greek dictionaries give the major meaning as "on" or "upon." However, a significant alternate is "over."
For example, of the 54 times that epi is rendered as "over" in the NASB, the following have to do with ruling over or having authority over:
Luke 1:33; 9:1; 19:14; 19:27; Acts 7:18; 7:27; Rom. 9:5; Eph. 4:6; Heb. 2:7; 3:6; 10:21; Rev. 2:26; 9:11; 13:7; 17:18.
It seems appropriate, therefore, to use "over" at Rev. 5:10 also.

Additionally, at Rev. 5:10, `earth' is in the genitive case. Acts 7:27, for example, uses the genitive emon in a parallel use: `ruler … over (epi) us (emon).
Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon notes specifically that epi "A. with the GENITIVE .... I. of Place; and 1. of the place on which; .... d. fig. used of things, affairs, persons, which one is set over, over which he exercises power .... Rev. v. 10;" - p. 231, Baker Book House, 1977.

 

[nPeace]

@Hockeycowboy @Neuropteron I don't think @Brian2 is ready to face up to the truthfulness in scripture.