The First Step On The Path?

[Sunstone]

"If we're willing to give up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated, then we can have the courage to relax with the groundlessness of our situation. This is the first step on the path."

- Pema Chodron


Why do you suppose Pema Chodron identifies giving up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated as the "first step on the path"? Does this have any relationship to the Buddha's "Four Noble Truths"? Is J. Krishnamurti correct that one cannot obtain enlightenment if one is trying to escape suffering? Do you agree or disagree with Chodron?

 

[Willamena]

I'll venture a guess: Hope is a tool to cement the future. When we give up hope, we can live in the moment.

 

[Pariah]

Why do you suppose Pema Chodron identifies giving up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated as the "first step on the path"?

The wording is tricky. To have hope, I assume he is saying, is to have expectations for the future, which do not allow us to live in the moment. To me, hope and expectations are two different things - expectation is an attachment to hope, rather than a generalized optimism.

Is J. Krishnamurti correct that one cannot obtain enlightenment if one is trying to escape suffering?

Once again, this is tricky. I don't understand why anyone should suffer, but we cannot understand suffering unless we gain from it - how are we to know beforehand? I think it may be instinctual, and if we do fail, you can dang well bet we'll learn from it.

But then again, there is all sorts of odd psychology associated with trauma, so I suppose the aforementioned statement doesn't always hold water.

Once again, a pre-occupation with escaping or living it seems dangerous. It is instinctual, animal, behavior to avoid suffering, but I feel we tend to know when it is beneficial for us. Training for a sports match may be physically straining, which to some, is suffering, but we know what we will gain, so we continue.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

Agree. The key word in that quote is "relax". That's the opening movement of mysticism and the closing movement of therapy.

 

[Engyo]

"If we're willing to give up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated, then we can have the courage to relax with the groundlessness of our situation. This is the first step on the path."

- Pema Chodron


Why do you suppose Pema Chodron identifies giving up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated as the "first step on the path"? Does this have any relationship to the Buddha's "Four Noble Truths"? Is J. Krishnamurti correct that one cannot obtain enlightenment if one is trying to escape suffering? Do you agree or disagree with Chodron?

Hi, Phil -

Did you place this in Mysticism intentionally? It seems that it orta be in Buddhism, but maybe you meant it for Mysticism..........

Pema is pointing out a Buddhist truth - suffering can be exterminated. Pain cannot be, nor can insecurity.......but they do not necessarily have to lead to suffering. It has everything to do with the Four Noble Truths, but also with different definitions for dukkha, which is loosely translated into english as suffering.

BTW, Pariah, Pema Chodron is female.

I also agree with Krishnamurti - eradication of suffering is vastly different than escaping it - and they probably do lie in two very different directions.

 

[YmirGF]

"If we're willing to give up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated, then we can have the courage to relax with the groundlessness of our situation. This is the first step on the path."

- Pema Chodron


Why do you suppose Pema Chodron identifies giving up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated as the "first step on the path"?

I can agree with this statement as he (I think) is basically saying "let go, don't get hung up on the idea that you are not good enough and seek to cut yourself off from your feelings. When we allow ourselves the freedom to FEEL, the moment, if we are honest, we might just begin to understand that we are taking ourselves too seriously. And yes, it is the very first step on the path, imho.

Is J. Krishnamurti correct that one cannot obtain enlightenment if one is trying to escape suffering?

I generally dislike Krishnamurti's views but here he is expressing a pretty standard Hindu belief, so it certainly isn't "his" idea. My read on his sentiments is that you should not view enlightenment as an "escape" in any way. The thing you are left with is simply reality and it is always best faced head on. By running away from pain you are simply going to run right into the middle of it.

BTW, Pariah, Pema Chodron is female.

Funny, I sensed it was a she and placed (I think) after he in my own answer, lol. Ahhh... form-free connections.

 

[mystic64]

"If we're willing to give up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated, then we can have the courage to relax with the groundlessness of our situation. This is the first step on the path."

- Pema Chodron


Why do you suppose Pema Chodron identifies giving up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated as the "first step on the path"? Does this have any relationship to the Buddha's "Four Noble Truths"? Is J. Krishnamurti correct that one cannot obtain enlightenment if one is trying to escape suffering? Do you agree or disagree with Chodron?

Well Sir, the link to the web page is missing. But, the concept that is being presented is pretty universal relative to achieving some of the more advanced mystical experiences. And it should be understood that what he is presenting here, at least relative to a lot of people, would require years of psychoanalysis or self introspection to achieve it. And generally speaking the whole process would be painful. "Why?" Because you are dealing with the concept of total "hopelessness" and total "vulnerability" as a mind state. Which of course will kill you. This is because when a person or an animal feels "powerless" and "vunerable" and all is "hopeless", the autonomic nervious system begins shutting down the body and the mind. From there you get sick and die. Sometime fast, sometimes slower. Which is why achieving permission to feel power or maintaining permission to feel power in one's life, even if it is not real , is very important to physical and mental health. The problem is that "hope" gives you permission to feel "power" and the possiblity of feeling "safe" and you can not achieve true union with the "unknown", which should be the ultimate goal of all mystics, if permission to feel "power" is involved in any way shape or form.

"The dark night of the soul." Is what a lot of mystics call the experience of, "giving up hope that insecurity and pain can be exterminated." The fellow that you are quoting is correct. The problem is what one has to work through to achieve it. And for most people it is not easy, at all. And maybe even dangerous if not done right. I spent twenty years working through that one and I had to use yogi meditations that consciously stimulated my life centers and immune system to counter balance my subconscious mind shutting down my nervious system because I was in a state of "powerlessness" and "hopelessness". What is funny is that if I had known about this back in the beginning it wouldn't have been as bad of an experience because I would have known what was going on.

"Is it the first step on the path?" Not so much . But, I will say one thing, it is one of those major steps on the path.