The fall of man

[look3467]

He is my Inspiration...I confess to that.
But my salvation lays in wisdom....
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The Carpenter is not the author of that idea...btw.
It was written in stone, centuries before Him.

If you know your bible, the Carpenter is just the workman of God's salvation, the one who builds God's house.

ISA 66:1 Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Surely, the house any man builds is destroyed, except God builds the house, it shall not stand.
2SA 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Tell me if you please, what particular man apart from Jesus could build a house for God that could not be destroyed?

Is King Solomon.s temple still standing?

Jesus being your inspiration is a starting point, and your ending point: if wisdom has given you understanding, then shall you see Jesus as your salvation.

The Carpenter that built the house of God not made with human hands but with God's hands, to where there is no end or ever shall be destroyed.

You are a brick, in the construction of that house held together by God's word.

PRO 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

JOB 39:6 Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings

You want wisdom?
REV 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

WISDOM SEEN IN PROVERBS 9:1 IS AS THE NUMBER 7

SO WE ARE LOOKING FOR THE 7th BEAST.

PRO 9:1 Wisdom Hath Builded Her House, She Hath Hewn Out Her Seven Pillars:

NOW TO BEGIN THE COUNT, 4 AROUND THE THRONE IN REV 4:7,

FIFTH OUT OF THE SEA IN REV 13:1,

THE 6th OUT OF THE EARTH IN REV 13:11,

THE SCARLET COLORED BEAST IN REV 17:3 THAT CARRIES THE WOMAN IS GIVEN A NUMBER IN SCRIPTURES:

REV 17:11 And The Beast That Was, And Is Not, Even He Is The Eighth, And Is Of The Seven, And Goeth Into Perdition.

HE IS THE EIGHT…. BECAUSE LIKE A WEEK SEEN ….IS DIFFERENT THEN EACH OF THE 7 DAYS LOOKED AT….

THE SCARLET COLOURED IS SEEING ALL THE BEASTS TOGETHER.

In short, Jesus built God’s house in one day, the day of His crucifixion, that day being as 7 days, or seven pillars.

There lies wisdom, figure that out, and you shall have it.

Blessings, AJ

Read:

 

[Thief]

Too much dogma...not enough thought...

The fall of Man never happened.
It is a misinterpretation of Man's relationship to God.

 

[Willamena]

Too much dogma...not enough thought...

The fall of Man never happened.
It is a misinterpretation of Man's relationship to God.

Or, it happens every moment of every day.

 

[look3467]

Too much dogma...not enough thought...

The fall of Man never happened.
It is a misinterpretation of Man's relationship to God.

What does the word fall mean, spiritually speaking, can you answer me that?

If there is no fall, than why Jesus?

Is it all based upon our own merit as to the outcome of our fate then?

You......show me the way to life after this one.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

What does the word fall mean, spiritually speaking, can you answer me that?

If there is no fall, than why Jesus?

Is it all based upon our own merit as to the outcome of our fate then?

You......show me the way to life after this one.

Blessings, AJ

As the Carpenter came and went, the pharisees came asking...
Have you come to abolish the old law?

'No...I have come to fulfill it.'
'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'....
Is fair warning...sufficiently so.

The ministry of the Carpenter was a correction to a faith system that was
failing the spirit.
Crossing over into the next life with such attitude as...
'an eye for an eye'...doesn't really work.

It will be done unto you as you did unto others.
This way the old law is not abolished.
The old law remains enforced.

It also puts your hand, to the task of how you will be handled in the next life.

Generosity on your head?...you first...unto others.
Turn a blind eye to the offenses you have done?...you first unto others.

If you bruise my cheek...and I return to my brothers in heaven....
They will ask who did so.
I will confess.
And you will be received by each of my brothers...as you received me...
as many times as I have brothers in heaven.
Place a stone in my path, that I stumble...and that stone will be heaved at you...
as many times as I have brothers.

It isn't that Man fell from grace having acquired the knowledge of good and evil.
That acquisition was needed....that Man would learn to conduct himself better, as he makes his approach to heaven.

But of course, the acquisition of knowledge is not a saving grace.
The devil knows the scriptures...all of them.
The devil knows the prophets...all of them.
But the devil doesn't live with God.

 

[look3467]

But of course, the acquisition of knowledge is not a saving grace.

Your correct 100%! Why? Because it is God work of salvation and not of mankind.

The devil knows the scriptures...all of them.
The devil knows the prophets...all of them.

Don't you find it odd that the devil knows so much, yet, you'd think he would repent?

But the devil doesn't live with God.

Well where would you say the devil lives.

Let me give you a reference scripture and you decide: Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

In reverse order: Where was Satan and why should He have an audience with God?
If Satan is God's arch enemy, why would he have to be given permission by God to even do an evil work to Job? Seems to me that Satan is an agent of God?

The last, "the day" meaning a particular day, is when the "sons of God" came to complain about Satan.

The "sons of God are the Jewish priesthood bring accusations against who they considered, a blasphemer, a devil on the day of Jesus' crucifixion.

Ref: Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Joh 7:20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

If it weren't for evil, you could never know how good you are!

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

Your correct 100%! Why? Because it is God work of salvation and not of mankind.
Don't you find it odd that the devil knows so much, yet, you'd think he would repent?
Well where would you say the devil lives.

Let me give you a reference scripture and you decide: Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

In reverse order: Where was Satan and why should He have an audience with God?
If Satan is God's arch enemy, why would he have to be given permission by God to even do an evil work to Job? Seems to me that Satan is an agent of God?

The last, "the day" meaning a particular day, is when the "sons of God" came to complain about Satan.

The "sons of God are the Jewish priesthood bring accusations against who they considered, a blasphemer, a devil on the day of Jesus' crucifixion.


Blessings, AJ

Odd that you would refer to Job.....from a thread I started...

"I find the preamble to be the most important and interesting part.
Please allow my paraphrasing. It will help me get to the point somewhat quicker.

The Sons of God did gather and with them came the Devil.
( I notice.....more than one son of God )

God does ask..."What are You doing here?"
(directed to the devil)

"oh I just come and go as I damn well please"

"Well....have You considered the least of my servants Job?"
(this is a rub on the Devil's nose....as if to say....the presence of Job...the least of servants.... is preferred.)

The Devil recants....and makes a remark as if to imply the character of Job is less than it should be.

God recants again...and allows the Devil all manner of discretion against Job, short of killing the man.

Now picture yourself as Job.
You're about to have your *** kicked....thoroughly....and by someone who really knows how to kick ***. No warning.

And it was God that sent him your way....and is willing to stand back and do nothing.
The Sons of God are silent."



If you think this is difficult to accept...just sit quietly....and think about it.
And let the devil sneak up on you.
God will allow it.
He has given the devil permission to be at your heel....always.

 

[look3467]

Odd that you would refer to Job.....from a thread I started...

"I find the preamble to be the most important and interesting part.
Please allow my paraphrasing. It will help me get to the point somewhat quicker.

The Sons of God did gather and with them came the Devil.
( I notice.....more than one son of God )

God does ask..."What are You doing here?"
(directed to the devil)

"oh I just come and go as I damn well please"

"Well....have You considered the least of my servants Job?"
(this is a rub on the Devil's nose....as if to say....the presence of Job...the least of servants.... is preferred.)

The Devil recants....and makes a remark as if to imply the character of Job is less than it should be.

God recants again...and allows the Devil all manner of discretion against Job, short of killing the man.

Now picture yourself as Job.
You're about to have your *** kicked....thoroughly....and by someone who really knows how to kick ***. No warning.

And it was God that sent him your way....and is willing to stand back and do nothing.
The Sons of God are silent."



If you think this is difficult to accept...just sit quietly....and think about it.
And let the devil sneak up on you.
God will allow it.
He has given the devil permission to be at your heel....always.

Amusing way to put it.

What you are not seeing is who Job is in similitude to.

Note: Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Substitute Jesus.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job (Jesus) fear God for nought?

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

The apostles scatter, His own received Him not, the world was offered Him, He refused, resisted not as a lamb to the slaughter, He was beaten, bruised, sped on, accused of blasphemy, an impostor and yet, the only thing that was done was the day cursed when He was born.

I mean, is that not what happened to Job? Lost His wife, children, cattle and a storm destroyed His barns and to boot, His friends told Him to denounce God, and the only thing Job did was curse the day He was born.

The day cursed is when Jesus was born, not of the flesh, but of the resurrection.
How so, you may ask, well, the day cursed is the day Jesus took the sins of the world and nailed them to the cross, once and for all time, meaning that from the beginning of humanity to the present and for all future generations, that day cursed covers it.

Now, to show you in story form words to that effect:

Job 1:2 And there were born unto him

seven sons and three daughters

.

Area of responsibility, the seven day creation (7 sons) of God, seen in three pictures.
(3 daughters)

Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she *****, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

The first two underlined are also 7 and 3.
His substance are the ten Commandments divided by two.

Avery great household, is the Jewish nation.

Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Underlined words in order: every one his day, are 7 times.

three sisters to eat and to drink with them are the seven days divided in to 3 pictures of the same day.

Job sent and sanctified them, is Jesus setting those 7 days apart as His willingness to justify them.

rose up early in the morning = resurrection morning

offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: = one sacrifice for all time


Thus did Job continually. Jesus continues to save mankind.

Oh, by the way, the devil won't be sinking up on me, for I know much about Him.

Now, perhaps you might want to contemplate on the similitude's in the bible as pertaining to the KEY figure of all there is.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

Amusing way to put it.

What you are not seeing is who Job is in similitude to.

Note: Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Substitute Jesus.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job (Jesus) fear God for nought?

Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

The apostles scatter, His own received Him not, the world was offered Him, He refused, resisted not as a lamb to the slaughter, He was beaten, bruised, sped on, accused of blasphemy, an impostor and yet, the only thing that was done was the day cursed when He was born.

I mean, is that not what happened to Job? Lost His wife, children, cattle and a storm destroyed His barns and to boot, His friends told Him to denounce God, and the only thing Job did was curse the day He was born.

The day cursed is when Jesus was born, not of the flesh, but of the resurrection.
How so, you may ask, well, the day cursed is the day Jesus took the sins of the world and nailed them to the cross, once and for all time, meaning that from the beginning of humanity to the present and for all future generations, that day cursed covers it.

Now, to show you in story form words to that effect:

Job 1:2 And there were born unto him .

Area of responsibility, the seven day creation (7 sons) of God, seen in three pictures.
(3 daughters)

Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she *****, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.

The first two underlined are also 7 and 3.
His substance are the ten Commandments divided by two.

Avery great household, is the Jewish nation.

Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them.
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Underlined words in order: every one his day, are 7 times.

three sisters to eat and to drink with them are the seven days divided in to 3 pictures of the same day.

Job sent and sanctified them, is Jesus setting those 7 days apart as His willingness to justify them.

rose up early in the morning = resurrection morning

offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: = one sacrifice for all time


Thus did Job continually. Jesus continues to save mankind.

Oh, by the way, the devil won't be sinking up on me, for I know much about Him.

Now, perhaps you might want to contemplate on the similitude's in the bible as pertaining to the KEY figure of all there is.

Blessings, AJ

Paraphrasing a scripture as I did...to accent the reading....is one thing.
Substituting pivotal characters is quite something else.

As you read Job...place yourself...as the characters...each one...
and the story will reveal itself...as is.

Overlapping different characters from different context doesn't help.
It leads to confusion, and then a false security.

The book of Job was written with a singular intent.
It describes the relationship of God, His sons, the devil, and a servant.
The peripheral characters, accent the situation.

Besides.... the digression from the topic title is increasing.

Would you like to redirect?

 

[look3467]

The rise of man is because of the fall of man.

The first Adam brought life in the flesh and the fall.

The second Adam (Jesus) brought life to a fallen man spiritually.

Everything else between those two is human history.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

The rise of man is because of the fall of man.

The first Adam brought life in the flesh and the fall.

The second Adam (Jesus) brought life to a fallen man spiritually.

Everything else between those two is human history.

Blessings, AJ

This is close....
but are you leaving the people....historically... out of the picture?
Adam, Moses, Noah, to name a few....

Adam may not have been worthy of heaven...
but that doesn't mean he fell from it.
He gained knowledge of good and evil....
but we already know that would be insufficient.

So....lacking the wisdom taught by the Carpenter....
all before Him...failed?

 

[look3467]

but are you leaving the people....historically... out of the picture?
Adam, Moses, Noah, to name a few....

Absolutely not!

They are a type, a similitude of Jesus.

Similar to, or like story confirming the true character of Jesus.

Adam may not have been worthy of heaven...
but that doesn't mean he fell from it.

Not that Adam was not worthy, because he was, for God saw to it that Adam and all his off spring were included in the saving grace of Jesus.

It is a God work, not mankind's work. (The saving part)

He gained knowledge of good and evil....
but we already know that would be insufficient.

You heard some one say "Yep, he ate it all, lock stock and barrel"?

Well, the tree of knowledge was not a real physical tree, but knowledge planted so that the living soul may have the power as a god and as a separate god entity.

The word "fallen" simply is a word used to depict the state of Adam as a separate entity as separated from God due to Adams ability to choose between good and evil.

The fallen state is similar to that of Jesus, as He Jesus takes mankind's fallen state as His own and nails it to the cross, freeing up the lost state of mankind to that of found and saved state.

So....lacking the wisdom taught by the Carpenter....
all before Him...failed?

Absolutely not!

For in the day, Jesus ate the fruit of that cursed tree, He, in our place died.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Jesus bought the tree with His blood and instituted His own, the tree of life.

The day Jesus died o9n the cross was for all time by God's taking that day out of time, thus applicable for for all time, from Adam to the present and toi all future generations.

The gift, you gotta understand is a gift from God, not merited by anything we do in works of righteousness.

The fallen man is no longer fallen, but saved, save he has knowledge of it.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

Absolutely not!

They are a type, a similitude of Jesus.
No...not all prophets are the same.

Similar to, or like story confirming the true character of Jesus.
The true character on the Carpenter is displayed by Him...
like no other before Him

Not that Adam was not worthy, because he was, for God saw to it that Adam and all his off spring were included in the saving grace of Jesus.

It is a God work, not mankind's work. (The saving part)
Jesus was not God?
And then you would have to discount previous prophets for not being God.

You heard some one say "Yep, he ate it all, lock stock and barrel"?
No.

Well, the tree of knowledge was not a real physical tree, ( I know) but knowledge planted so that the living soul may have the power as a god and as a separate god entity.
"They have become like us."

The word "fallen" simply is a word used to depict the state of Adam as a separate entity as separated from God due to Adams ability to choose between good and evil.
Adam chose. The concept of fallen is false.
The acquisition of knowledge is a step up.

The fallen state is similar to that of Jesus, as He Jesus takes mankind's fallen state as His own and nails it to the cross, freeing up the lost state of mankind to that of found and saved state.
There is no actual connection to be made here.

Absolutely not!

For in the day, Jesus ate the fruit of that cursed tree, He, in our place died.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Jesus bought the tree with His blood and instituted His own, the tree of life.

The day Jesus died o9n the cross was for all time by God's taking that day out of time, thus applicable for for all time, from Adam to the present and toi all future generations.

The gift, you gotta understand is a gift from God, not merited by anything we do in works of righteousness.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Sufficiently righteous?...I think so.

The fallen man is no longer fallen, but saved, save he has knowledge of it.

Blessings, AJ

This is an example of overlapping ideas, in a losing effort to make it all coherent.
So...I typed in corrections briefly stated.

 

[Lion of Yehuda]

Hi all.

If I remember correctly, according to the Abrahamic religions there was a fall of man. It happened when Adam and Eve ate some forbidden fruit. May I ask, do I remember correctly? If I do, why was the fruit forbidden, and if it could cause the fall of man why did God put it there in the first place? Was it according to Gods plan that it happened or did we go against Gods will (if I remember correctly it was the latest, but I would still like to ask to be sure)?

Was some time ago I read about it, and I realized I don´t know or understand that much of the story, so if anyone could help me to understand it better I would be greatful .

Take care,
Kerr.

The purpose of not eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was that Adam and Eve would remain innocent and spiritually light creations of the Most High, who would eventually inherit eternity of good. In this state, evil and good were not mixed together, but were separate, and human beings did not yet have any evil impulse inside of their hearts. If they had made it past the first day and reached the Sabbath, they would have enjoyed an eternity with all their descendants in the Garden, as happy nudists.

But as someone else said, this one command was a test of obedience, and was also the potential which they had to earn the future eternity.

The main reason for not eating from this tree is that it would change human creations into mortal beings, who would eventually die (after one thousand years of life), and having made the wrong choice, they would suffer many deprivations and be required to toil as the land itself became cursed by their action and would not so easily give of its fruits as in the garden.

And having fallen from the potential of being immortal, they now needed to be repaired and to repair the world they damaged by their act. So all humans had that ability to effect a repair for Adam's mistake - until the Flood destroyed that generation minus Noah and his family.

We see that there were substantial reasons for choosing to obey God, since His purpose in making human beings was to bestow His goodness upon them. And the revealed scripture is His manual for making the repentance and repairs that we need to make in order to earn an eternal reward in the world to come, as well as to best experience the highest possible good in this world.

My response draws upon the text but also upon various Midrashim and bible commentary by Ramchal and Rashi, among others.

 

[Thief]

Did you read this thread?

 

[look3467]

But as someone else said, this one command was a test of obedience, and was also the potential which they had to earn the future eternity.>>>Lion of Yehuda

Eternity in my opinion can not be earned period.

Ref: Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

But the answer is, that there is one righteous......that being the Son of God.

What was required after the what is termed "the fall" or "fallen" was a requirement of righteousness that according to the bible, was ref: Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Who but God alone can forgive sins, was the question, ref: Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Here's the dilemma, we have as a requirement righteouness of which unless we have achieved a level of righteouness to exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, no man could expect to have entrance into the kingdom of God.

And if the scribes and Pharisee are the ones in judgment against the Son of man (God), by accusing Jesus as a blasphemer and being equal with God, then what hope have any of us in entering the kingdom of God.

Absolutely nothing.

So, all your/ours righteousness is as filthy rags, worthy of nothing in respect to eternal life.

What then? Well, if God is the only one that can forgive sins, means only that God as a man, or as a "son of man" with the righteousness of God alone, can become all of humanity in one body.

Meaning, that in order for humanity to enter heaven must then come through that one body.

Ref: Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

OK, here is the work of God: All of mankind being many, fallen and without hope, and in one body can all of mankind be made whole again is .......Jesus.

Jesus is then... the real "fallen man" taking the fall instead for all humanity, has in effect granted us freedom from the fall, or eternal separation, meaning death spiritually, and has by God alone, granted us life as a free gift.

So, we should give up trying to achieve works of righteousness and accept the righteouness of God as our own, and be made whole, as if we were/are not fallen.

It is hard to understand so simple a concept when mankind seems to think that we have to achieve a level of goodness, or attain a level of understanding, or attempt to enter God's kingdom by any other way, except through the Son of God is fruitless.

I therefore condemn no one for what they believe, for God has covered all with the righteousness of Christ, liberating us from the pangs of death and delivering us into the glorious kingdom of God.

Therefore, my brother or sister, let us love one another as He has loved us, in by so doing, we shall comply with the commandment of loving our neighbor, thus loving God.

Blessings, AJ

 

[look3467]

So...I typed in corrections briefly stated.>>>Thief

Assuming, that you have the one true and most correct view, right? Otherwise, all else are not?

With all due respect to your views, my God/as yours gives us the freedom to differ, the only thing He (God) desires, is that in our differences, we love one another as He loves us.

So, I would expect your views presented as your views and not as corrections to my views.
I hope you understand what I mean.

Blessings, AJ

 

[Thief]

Assuming, that you have the one true and most correct view, right? Otherwise, all else are not?

With all due respect to your views, my God/as yours gives us the freedom to differ, the only thing He (God) desires, is that in our differences, we love one another as He loves us.

So, I would expect your views presented as your views and not as corrections to my views.
I hope you understand what I mean.

Blessings, AJ

Sure I do....you don't.

So much dogma...no thought.
If you had kept it simple...no problem.

For example...you go on at length.....hint at the wisdom ...then fail to quote...
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

And this has been with us since the dawn of time.
We've never needed anything else .....or anything more.

 

[look3467]

Sure I do....you don't.

Case closed! No further discourse is necessary.

Blessings, AJ