• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The evidence for the resurection of Jesus

leroy

Well-Known Member
A theologian does not question if the religion is real. They start with the assumption it is real. That is the definition of confirmation bias.

The best possible authority on the NT is Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier. For Acts it's Richard Purvoe. For the Q gospel it's Goodacre. Another gospel expert is John Dominic Crossan.
For Moses it's Thomas Thompson.
Thomas L. Brodie has become an expert on John and Luke and their use of OT narratives.
.

so you idea of "unbiased" and realiable sources are sources from authors that actually make a living and sale a bunch of books out of promoting tjeir atheist and, "anti Christian" stuff.....


but ok, I welcome any of these scholars to do an statistically relevant survey, and show that Gary Habermas is wrong with his 75% of scholars accept the empty tomb.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
so you idea of "unbiased" and realiable sources are sources from authors that actually make a living and sale a bunch of books out of promoting tjeir atheist and, "anti Christian" stuff.....


but ok, I welcome any of these scholars to do an statistically relevant survey, and show that Gary Habermas is wrong with his 75% of scholars accept the empty tomb.
Unbiased means following the evidence, even if it goes against one's personal beliefs.

EDIT: And you have it backwards. We do not have to show that Habermas is wrong. He needs to be able to prove that he is right. Or that his claim even matters. If 75% of scholars based their reasoning on "because the Bible told me so" then their defense is far from rational and their opinions are moot.
 
Last edited:

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Water oxygen heavens science stated our living condition.

Light gases burning in vacuum.

Not any history. Is presence.

What is present.

We live the same one status a human. Yet some of us are living suffering.

Status. Human suffering is in status a Saved condition lived.

All humans die.

Science thesis. Did human life resurrect out of a God one stone body.

Answer UFO radiation proved by word letter number to be the answer. What was released and gone were gases supporting fused stone spirit a gas. Radiation released.

Teaching of science life as bio lives by newly born returned as healthy human in a non nuclear heavenly status as stable.

Supported by gas spirit presence due to ice returned end of each year as balances for stability.

A basic teaching.

Where did life come from a human thesis.

Nature garden is first life is grounded in the stone.

Answer no human rose as a spirit out of one God stone.

A science statement says life began.

Human life did not begin as garden form.

Did men die? Another question In a satanic stated attack? Nuclear

Archaeology finds machine parts within fusion as was human artefacts.

Science said life of man had returned by studies of pre existing earth evidences. Life existed a long time ago.

Question posed did he then resurrect through nature garden. Where and how did man life return. Due to archaeological evidence.

The argument.

After God O earth core heart released radiation UFO effect. Life suffered the attack. Proving that the earth had not created life. Due to the attacks and sacrifice of bio health.

What was learnt.

Only the eternal spirit reasoning was accepted.

The question why did I believe humans came from a pre existing spirit body.

The answer the eternal.

Reason teachings said Jesus was not our father.
 

ameyAtmA

~ ~
Premium Member
Nothing analogous to what happened 2000 years ago has ever been reported.

Reported to whom by whom? Perhaps they did not feel the need to report it outside of the spiritual traditions? Other traditions are quiet about the esoteric phenomena. That is how the Divine wants it to be kept.

I have been thoroughly enjoying the conversation between you and @Rival , especially her responses... "So?"

Jesus lives in spirit form. He has presented Himself in form to many, myself included, but so have other Divine Beings.
It is not hard for me to believe that He appeared to the disciples after the 3 days.

There is another story that says he did not die on the cross. Definition of death is tricky.
A person can be in a state of unconscious and then activated - few can do this - but it can happen. The story that Jesus went to India after the crucification, and finally died much later in Kashmir - spending time with the yogis / sadhus he had gone to between the ages of 12 and 32 -- is also there.

It is said that Shri Krishna, as a child of 5 years, when He entered the Yamuna river to drive out the poisonous Kaliya serpent, went unconscious under water, and got up after a long time - which was considered as a revival, rebirth or resurrection. Some ordinary human would have died instead.


So many incidents of divine beings - including forms of Brahman' - either appearing
(i) as a hologram
(ii) silhouette or shadow
(iii) projected in the mind's eye by the subconscious --- NOT to be mistaken as imagination / hallucination
(iv) as a physical being! Yes.
(v) As a substitute symbol to be revered

Regarding (iv) --- They are Spirit, but take the form of an ordinary human so that they do not get recognized easily. They appear to an individual alone , but also to a group. Only when they disappear do the people start saying "It was ___!! How could I have been so stupid as to not recognize ____ !!"

That is Krishna's style. His darshan is very hard to come by (be it in other-worldly Blue, black, golden or ordinary human form), and on the other hand He is so accessible that He is the closest to the heart and always with the devotees. Krishna said in Bhagavad Geeta that He is the One who lives in all hearts. He is the Life Principle itself. For very few though, He manifests and is in communication with the living human.


Groups of people have seen Krishna in physical form at once. (This is apart from the other-worldly forms seen at other times by individuals alone).

Krishna has given evidence in court (in disguise, covered in a shawl to hide face), of things no one knew or could have possibly known - and saved an old lady's property from getting stolen by a conman. The judge got a glimpse of Him and almost fainted. Then He slipped out and disappeared before the crowd realized what just happened.

It is amusing that you make it a point to write Krishna with a small 'k' while spelling your next-door mundane neighbor's name with a Capital letter.


You are right, the esoteric experiences of devotees in India about Krishna have not been reported outside. Do you know why? Because He instructed
BG 18.67 DO NOT explain this Yoga [that I just explained to you] to
(i) those who are not devoted
(ii) those who are not austere
(iii) those who are envious of Me or criticize Me


It is a popular belief that Krishna appears in Nidhivan every night. So the authorities and priests lock up that place, so no one can enter. Monkeys and other creatures, birds are also seen leaving the place after dusk. Some people wanted to see for themselves , mostly did not believe this, and hid in Nidhivan --- they either almost died, went crazy, blind or dumb so that they could not report what they saw, but just made gestures. Several incidences reported and eye-witnessed.

Experience of the devotee who, while ritually bathing in the sacred ice-cold Manas Sarovar in the snowy Kailash , heard Shri Krishna say "I am coming towards you" and a few seconds later Dattatreya (another avatAr of VishNu) said "I am also coming towards you" , and the next thing he knew - 2 pairs of sacred sandals (paduka) of sandalwood, were in his hands! Sound of chanting of NArAyaN Upanishad was heard (by others too) as this happened. When the Lord VishNu (NarayaN) appears, these hymns are chanted by angels.

The sandals are physical, they are showcased every fortnight for the public - on Ekadashi. This happened in 2009! (see thumbnail)

Experience of Jiva Goswami who met Krishna and received the Govardhan shila from Him, so that Jiva does not have to walk around the Govardhan Hill everyday in old age. The shila is physical and kept in a Temple.

I had better stop. People are not going to approve of reporting these things here.
 

Attachments

  • ShriPadukaPaperBack.jpg
    ShriPadukaPaperBack.jpg
    104.6 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Humans the consciousness speaking thinking have experienced.

Claim the pre living human life now deceased visited them.

Exactly word use. Human expressed words. A human having the experience.

Humans quote. When life was attacked I saw images of man human in clouds and they came to the ground.

A human experience in phenomena causes.

Ask why phenomena happens as an extra state not nature first form that arises out of stone. Not animals. Not humans?

One situation. Chosen human sciences the designer who witnessed the phenomena that they caused as science.

Seeing science has studied a lot of phenomena objects.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
so you idea of "unbiased" and realiable sources are sources from authors that actually make a living and sale a bunch of books out of promoting tjeir atheist and, "anti Christian" stuff.....

Almost all of those scholars are Professors. Their work is peer-reviewed and has to be accepted first. Scholarship is not looking to promote false narratives, that is conspiracy theory paranoia. Carrier expected to confirm what was consensus at the time and was surprised at his results. But the other aspect is their work is available for anyone to study. Christianity just happens to be as mythical as any other religion, the evidence only supports borrowed myths and fictive writing based on older fiction. That's literally it.

but ok, I welcome any of these scholars to do an statistically relevant survey, and show that Gary Habermas is wrong with his 75% of scholars accept the empty tomb.

I just did. I showed a non-bias study that shows about 20% of scholars take a religion serious. So filtering out Islam, Jewish and other religions that leaves around 10-15%.

In his paper Habermas admitted he was using a much higher ratio of people who are "conservative" meaning the papers were from people who are massively bias towards the religion like thelogians. 3 to 1 I think.
Again, the scientific community is generally not into fundamentalism. The scholars who take the most non-bias look into religion - historians, comparative religion studies, all almost 100% non-believers.

So this paper demonstrates nothing. If you went to an area that was largely Islamic and 75% of the scholars accepted arguments for Muhammed being a real prophet of Allah would this be any evidence at all for the reality of the Angel Gabrielle meeting up with Muhammed? No.
Can you find any evidence that isn't a complete farce?
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
We are humans owning experiences. Some humans use an owned choice such as applied research. Human chosen. Research first is human stated also. Motivation. Purpose. Supposed outcome.

Outcome says my motivated choice is to prove.

Want for a motivated purpose pre exists.

Religion did not pre exist. So if a human does not agree with it first it is notified because it did not pre exist.

The same goes for human ego expressed researched motivations. Not first. Motivation chosen.

Natural self human is first before anything expressed by motivated want.

Thesis jesus was about the presence of human caring. human natural life. Family unity respecting human parents. Living spirituality mutual.

Conscious self identification is first. Not egotism by motivation.

Teaching human presence. Human consciousness. Human health due to heavenly support conditions.

Statement life attacked before jesus was stated real. Temple high priest sciences pyramid.

Reason for documents.

A human was not first direct from God

Conscious awareness nature garden grounded in God earth. First earth body nature. Not human.

Jesus said consciously my spiritual father existed before me. Teaching.

Conscious awareness.

The awareness said even though I was life bodily cell brain harmed. I am conscious spiritual living caring as a human. Natural with support God. I am not any other form except human.

A consciousness teaching.

No science involved.

Versus what human sciences had caused. Life attacked.

Gases constant.
Heavens can reactive change with a result witnessed. Yet reactive heavens stopped the attack.

Reactive heavens witnessed. Attack stopped as it was not constant. Intellect says natural is present constant.

Bible a warning to the sciences.

A fact. Warnings.

Scholars cannot claim that warnings are not real as they owned science predictive measures. Witnessed attacks to life by heavens.

However you can as a scholar state yet science does not own natural as it's mass and be correct. The nature of natural is observed by humans.

Thesis is based on humans thinking unnaturally about evolution before it existed is the topic where a scholar would claim humans own intellectually no rights to argue. As we exist only where evolved exists.

And be correct by human conditions. What we argue for human rights to exist as our highest selves.

For science today claiming humans sacrificed and lived is correct. As we did. Yet life sacrificed still exists also.

So predictive documents would still own a human reason to be preached

As predictive status would claim. In the future life would be saved. Healed. The spiritual life of humanity returned.

So today we say it has not.

Human recognition innate. Natural. Reasoned. Seen. Observation says being saved from sacrifice not real.

Because the scholar advice today only is correct.

And be that scholar realising consciously.

Knowing the phenomena stated had not stopped. As humans today witness similar angel effects. Evil effects from atmospheric changes also.

Phenomena origin sun caused still exists witnessed UFO. Life sacrificed witnessing phenomena effects still occurring. So we prove evolution has not been allowed. Healing from mutations.

Stated to have been a human baby life returned witnessed healed from Moses mutation life to evolution before science was resought. ....Jesus.

Reactive atmospheric phenomena still occurs today.

Occurs as it is seen.

The only constant practiced is human chosen nuclear constant changes. Sciences.

If a human quotes the earth by human choice attacked life it did. It was a one of event. Witnessed. Studied. Documented.

The thesis human about where life came from is not actual. It is just a belief argued by human egotism about the I know everything status.

As stated for a human brain changed today to claim from God to human direct would be the state recording.

It would not be stating natural life.

As natural life with God O earth is not first any human.

It is the nature garden by observation.

The argument was about what the human science brothers had caused as an aware human conscious advice.

As we have not yet evolved from a radiation heavenly science caused life attack the warnings are still relevant.

Fallout status. Heavenly gas changes to the clouds. Producing the angel effect or evil spirit effect observed by humans.

Human observation. To see the status. As humans observe and define the stories.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Almost all of those scholars are Professors. Their work is peer-reviewed and has to be accepted first. Scholarship is not looking to promote false narratives, that is conspiracy theory paranoia.

Well the same is true with the scholars that Gary Habermas Quoted, he only uses sources that pass the peer review process.

My point is that you shouldn’t reject a source based on the religion/world view f the author…..agree?



I just did. I showed a non-bias study that shows about 20% of scholars take a religion serious. So filtering out Islam, Jewish and other religions that leaves around 10-15%.

Irrelevant, authors can accept the empty tomb even if they don’t take religion seriously.



In his paper Habermas admitted he was using a much higher ratio of people who are "conservative" meaning the papers were from people who are massively bias towards the religion like thelogians. 3 to 1 I think.
Again, the scientific community is generally not into fundamentalism. The scholars who take the most non-bias look into religion - historians, comparative religion studies, all almost 100% non-believers.

Well that is because most NT scholars happen to be conservative. I dont see the problem,



But that doesn’t change the fact that most NT scholars accept the empty tomb.

Remember my claim (and therefore my burned proof) was that most NT scholars accept the empty tomb. ………….I didn’t say “most atheist scholars accept the empty tomb” It would be interesting to see a survey on that, but that is beyond the scope of my burden proof.




So this paper demonstrates nothing.[/QUOTE]
It demonstrates that most scholars accept the empty tomb.


If you went to an area that was largely Islamic and 75% of the scholars accepted arguments for Muhammed being a real prophet of Allah would this be any evidence at all for the reality of the Angel Gabrielle meeting up with Muhammed? No.

I would agree with the claim “most scholars from that area believe in muhamed”

And even more important, I wouldn’t reject their work just because the authors have a world view that I don’t share, I would try to spot the mistakes and flaws in his work and explain why I think they are flaws and mistakes.




Can you find any evidence that isn't a complete farce?


1 multiple independent and early attestation

2 embarrassment (the tomb was discovered by woman)

3 the lack of competing accounts

4 the earliest excuse form “the enemies” was that the “Christians stole the body” implying that the tomb was empty,

5 if the tomb would have not been empty, Jews and roams would have been happy to expose the body and disprove any resurrection claims
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
EDIT: And you have it backwards. We do not have to show that Habermas is wrong. He needs to be able to prove that he is right.

Which he did, he published his results in a peer reviewed journal.


Or that his claim even matters.

Well you are the one asking me to support the claim, if you think that the claim doesn’t matter, then let’s move on to a topic that you think it matters.





If 75% of scholars based their reasoning on "because the Bible told me so" then their defense is far from rational and their opinions are moot.

Ok but that would be a different objection. It would still be true that 75% of scholars agree with the empty tomb…… even if they do it for the wrong reasons.

So first admit that most scholars agree with the empty tomb, and then we can move on and see if they have good reasons for accepting the empty tomb.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I have linked you the profile of several of these scholars demonstrating that they have training no in history. What else you want?

ok
you said:
For example, here is John P Meier, often consider a leading figure in historical Jesus field. His degree: doctorate in sacred literature from a divinity school. He may be an expert in Biblical literature . but he has no expertise in determining historicity of events depicted in the said literature. That is the province of experts of history, with doctorates in history. This is the main reason why nothing here has any validity.
John P. - Meier | Department of Theology | University of Notre Dame
Ok and was John P Meier, part of the survey that Gary Habermas published?.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Which he did, he published his results in a peer reviewed journal.




Well you are the one asking me to support the claim, if you think that the claim doesn’t matter, then let’s move on to a topic that you think it matters.







Ok but that would be a different objection. It would still be true that 75% of scholars agree with the empty tomb…… even if they do it for the wrong reasons.

So first admit that most scholars agree with the empty tomb, and then we can move on and see if they have good reasons for accepting the empty tomb.
You have failed to substantiate your claims in the OP. I do not recall you posting any articles tat were peer reviewed. The Liberty University article was not peer reviewed.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You have failed to substantiate your claims in the OP. I do not recall you posting any articles tat were peer reviewed. The Liberty University article was not peer reviewed.


about the journal where the article by Habermass was written...... (Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus)
the various stages that a manuscript must undergo before a final decision about publication by Brill is taken will be described. These three stages are: the proposal, the draft manuscript and, finally, the peer review
Peer review is usually conducted on a double blind basis, meaning that neither you nor the reviewer know the other’s identity.
So yes the article was peer reviewed.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
about the journal where the article by Habermass was written...... (Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus)


So yes the article was peer reviewed.
Sorry, does not sound like a proper peer reviewed journal at all. You might as well have cited a creationist "journal" for an evolution argument.

But let's check it out:

Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus - Wikipedia

The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus provides for academic discussion of Jesus within the context of 1st-century Palestine. It is intended to be accessible to a non-scholarly readership who are interested in this field.

Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus | Brill

The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus provides an international forum for the academic discussion of Jesus within his first-century context. The journal is accessible to all who are interested in how this complex topic has been addressed in the past and how it is approached today.

Okay, so definitely not a well respected professional peer reviewed journal.

Do I have to write out that entire line every time? It is merely a place where almost anyone that pays can get an article published.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
ok
you said:

Ok and was John P Meier, part of the survey that Gary Habermas published?.
As far as I recall he was mentioned. So were several other scholar who also do not have a degree in history. The survey is your evidence. Check out.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Well the same is true with the scholars that Gary Habermas Quoted, he only uses sources that pass the peer review process.

My point is that you shouldn’t reject a source based on the religion/world view f the author…..agree?

No because apologetics is psuedo-science.
Did I not point out 2 examples of "it's true because the Bible says it's true"?






Irrelevant, authors can accept the empty tomb even if they don’t take religion seriously.


Why would a non-believer be of any use as evidence to you?


Well that is because most NT scholars happen to be conservative. I dont see the problem,

In the paper he's calling believers "conservative" and non-believers "skeptic". The ratio is skewed towards believers.

But that doesn’t change the fact that most NT scholars accept the empty tomb.

Remember my claim (and therefore my burned proof) was that most NT scholars accept the empty tomb. ………….I didn’t say “most atheist scholars accept the empty tomb” It would be interesting to see a survey on that, but that is beyond the scope of my burden proof.

Yes people who have no interest in exploring if these stories are actually true may accept what they say. How does this help as evidence?


So this paper demonstrates nothing.
It demonstrates that most scholars accept the empty tomb.


No he said it was 3 to 1 in favor of believers. This paper says "believers believe". See how apologetics is just a waste of time if you care about what is true?

I would agree with the claim “most scholars from that area believe in muhamed”

And even more important, I wouldn’t reject their work just because the authors have a world view that I don’t share, I would try to spot the mistakes and flaws in his work and explain why I think they are flaws and mistakes.

I showed he's using believers 3 to 1.
I showed 2 times were the logic in the paper was " it's true because it says so". I think we found the flaws.



1 multiple independent and early attestation

some good apologetics to debunk:

"Christian apologists are confusing the word “independent” with the word “different.” A hundred different sources attest to the existence of Hercules. But they are not independent sources. They all derive, directly or indirectly, from the same single source, a myth about Hercules. Who never existed.
There is in fact only one explicit source for the historicity of Jesus: the Gospel of Mark. All other sources that mention the crucifixion of Jesus as an event in earth history derive that mention from Mark, either directly (e.g. Matthew, Luke, John; Celsus; Justin; etc.) or indirectly, as Christians simply repeat the same claims in those Gospels, which all embellish and thus derive from that same one Gospel, Mark, and their critics simply believed them because they would have thought it was too self-damning to make up, and because there was no way for them to check."


2 embarrassment (the tomb was discovered by woman)

The author writing fiction was incorporating themes, one of the big ones was the least shall be the first". Hence the woman (the least) were the first. Not history, a story.

3 the lack of competing accounts

There were at least 5 other religions combining their ideas with Hellenistic ideas while the Jewish religion was also combining with Hellenistic ideas.

There are other dying/rising savior gods who through baptism into their cult you gain entry into the afterlife

There is a blackout period of 80 years where all criticisms, refutations and other versions of Christianity were blacked out. When we found the Dead Sea Scrolls along with letters from Bishop Ignateus we now know that at least 50% of Christianity was Gnostic in the 2nd century. They all considered the others to be heretical and had completely different theologies about Jesus and Yahweh. Elaine Pagels details all this in The Gnostic Gospels.

Even in scripture 2 Peter 1:16 speaks of other Christians who were calling Jesus a myth. Then he goes on to create a fictitious account of meeting Jesus. So we know there were people claiming it to be fiction.



4 the earliest excuse form “the enemies” was that the “Christians stole the body” implying that the tomb was empty,

5 if the tomb would have not been empty, Jews and roams would have been happy to expose the body and disprove any resurrection claims

The gospels are the first accounts of an earthly Jesus, decades after the fact, wildly fictitious, every story has allegorical or propagandistic intent and Mark looks like a meta-parable (outsiders told a story while insiders are told what it really means) Mark 4:11-12.
Plus Mark is using OT narratives line by line as well as using Paul to create earthly stories. There are several papers on this.
So any content in the gospels is probably fiction. The tomb is no exception.

Empty tomb myths were not uncommon and had a direct meaning:

"For 1st-century Jews and Greeks an empty tomb was a sign that the dead person had been taken into the divine realm.[40] These rapture stories, told always from the point of view of witnesses left behind, described the subject taken body and soul into heaven at the conclusion of life and following the appearance of a heavenly being, whether an angel or God himself,[41] and any serious rapture claim needed at least the absence of a corpse and preferably an empty tomb.[42] In the gospels Jesus is presented as resurrected in the body, but it is clearly not the everyday body: he is not recognised by the disciples on the road to Emmaeus in Luke (the episode follows immediately from Luke's empty tomb narrative), and in John Mary Magdalene fails to recognise the "gardener" until he speaks to her.[


And resurrection myths were already big in Greek culture, early Church Fathers said it was the work of the devil or some apologetics that has now been abandoned for pure denial:

"
The Greeks and Romans also believed in the reality of resurrection, and Christians knew of the numerous resurrection-events which had been experienced by persons other than Jesus: the early 3rd century theologian Origen, for example, did not deny the resurrection of the 7th century BCE poet Aristeas or the immortality of Antinous, the beloved of the 2nd century CE emperor Hadrian, but said the first had been the work of daemons, not God, while the second, unlike Jesus, was unworthy of worship.[36]

Emphasis on resurrection after death permeated throughout the Greco-Roman world through the Hellenic Mysteries of Isis, which were themselves modeled after the Eleusinian Mysteries.[37] Carl Jung considered the rebirth in the Osiris myth and Isis mysteries as the precursor archetypes for the resurrection of Christ and afterlife beliefs of Christianity.[38] The ancient Eleusinian Mysteries beliefs centered on the rebirth of Persephone as the mythic image of the eternity of life and initiation was motivated by a reward in the afterlife."
 
Last edited:

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Humans living.

Invent a human meaning maths for science is looking for maths.

Consciously maths a human thesis first is supposedly an explanation of creation so says the men of it's invention.

Maths for science.

You have to think about it to impose it.

Is that your Ai affected psyche claim to God?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Sorry, does not sound like a proper peer reviewed journal at all. You might as well have cited a creationist "journal" for an evolution argument.

But let's check it out:

Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus - Wikipedia

The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus provides for academic discussion of Jesus within the context of 1st-century Palestine. It is intended to be accessible to a non-scholarly readership who are interested in this field.

Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus | Brill

The Journal for the Study of the Historical Jesus provides an international forum for the academic discussion of Jesus within his first-century context. The journal is accessible to all who are interested in how this complex topic has been addressed in the past and how it is approached today.

Okay, so definitely not a well respected professional peer reviewed journal.

Do I have to write out that entire line every time? It is merely a place where almost anyone that pays can get an article published.


Okay, so definitely not a well respected professional peer reviewed journal.
why not?

It is merely a place where almost anyone that pays can get an article published
How do you know that?
----
If the author Gary Habermas was free to invent any lie, and he is a “liar for jesus” then why inventing the 75% consensus? Why not inventing a 99% concensus?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
As far as I recall he was mentioned. So were several other scholar who also do not have a degree in history. The survey is your evidence. Check out.
hard to belive since the survey only included european scholars

Please mention a single scholar that was part of the survey and show that he is a “fake scholar” or that he doesn’t have the proper credentials

The survey is your evidence
And the evidence was provided, the survey includes only NT scholars that have published in peer review journals, to me that sounds like a very good filter that would exclude all the charlatans.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No because apologetics is psuedo-science.
Did I not point out 2 examples of "it's true because the Bible says it's true"?









Why would a non-believer be of any use as evidence to you?




In the paper he's calling believers "conservative" and non-believers "skeptic". The ratio is skewed towards believers.



Yes people who have no interest in exploring if these stories are actually true may accept what they say. How does this help as evidence?





No he said it was 3 to 1 in favor of believers. This paper says "believers believe". See how apologetics is just a waste of time if you care about what is true?



I showed he's using believers 3 to 1.
I showed 2 times were the logic in the paper was " it's true because it says so". I think we found the flaws.





some good apologetics to debunk:

"Christian apologists are confusing the word “independent” with the word “different.” A hundred different sources attest to the existence of Hercules. But they are not independent sources. They all derive, directly or indirectly, from the same single source, a myth about Hercules. Who never existed.
There is in fact only one explicit source for the historicity of Jesus: the Gospel of Mark. All other sources that mention the crucifixion of Jesus as an event in earth history derive that mention from Mark, either directly (e.g. Matthew, Luke, John; Celsus; Justin; etc.) or indirectly, as Christians simply repeat the same claims in those Gospels, which all embellish and thus derive from that same one Gospel, Mark, and their critics simply believed them because they would have thought it was too self-damning to make up, and because there was no way for them to check."




The author writing fiction was incorporating themes, one of the big ones was the least shall be the first". Hence the woman (the least) were the first. Not history, a story.



There were at least 5 other religions combining their ideas with Hellenistic ideas while the Jewish religion was also combining with Hellenistic ideas.

There are other dying/rising savior gods who through baptism into their cult you gain entry into the afterlife

There is a blackout period of 80 years where all criticisms, refutations and other versions of Christianity were blacked out. When we found the Dead Sea Scrolls along with letters from Bishop Ignateus we now know that at least 50% of Christianity was Gnostic in the 2nd century. They all considered the others to be heretical and had completely different theologies about Jesus and Yahweh. Elaine Pagels details all this in The Gnostic Gospels.

Even in scripture 2 Peter 1:16 speaks of other Christians who were calling Jesus a myth. Then he goes on to create a fictitious account of meeting Jesus. So we know there were people claiming it to be fiction.





The gospels are the first accounts of an earthly Jesus, decades after the fact, wildly fictitious, every story has allegorical or propagandistic intent and Mark looks like a meta-parable (outsiders told a story while insiders are told what it really means) Mark 4:11-12.
Plus Mark is using OT narratives line by line as well as using Paul to create earthly stories. There are several papers on this.
So any content in the gospels is probably fiction. The tomb is no exception.

Empty tomb myths were not uncommon and had a direct meaning:

"For 1st-century Jews and Greeks an empty tomb was a sign that the dead person had been taken into the divine realm.[40] These rapture stories, told always from the point of view of witnesses left behind, described the subject taken body and soul into heaven at the conclusion of life and following the appearance of a heavenly being, whether an angel or God himself,[41] and any serious rapture claim needed at least the absence of a corpse and preferably an empty tomb.[42] In the gospels Jesus is presented as resurrected in the body, but it is clearly not the everyday body: he is not recognised by the disciples on the road to Emmaeus in Luke (the episode follows immediately from Luke's empty tomb narrative), and in John Mary Magdalene fails to recognise the "gardener" until he speaks to her.[


And resurrection myths were already big in Greek culture, early Church Fathers said it was the work of the devil or some apologetics that has now been abandoned for pure denial:

"
The Greeks and Romans also believed in the reality of resurrection, and Christians knew of the numerous resurrection-events which had been experienced by persons other than Jesus: the early 3rd century theologian Origen, for example, did not deny the resurrection of the 7th century BCE poet Aristeas or the immortality of Antinous, the beloved of the 2nd century CE emperor Hadrian, but said the first had been the work of daemons, not God, while the second, unlike Jesus, was unworthy of worship.[36]

Emphasis on resurrection after death permeated throughout the Greco-Roman world through the Hellenic Mysteries of Isis, which were themselves modeled after the Eleusinian Mysteries.[37] Carl Jung considered the rebirth in the Osiris myth and Isis mysteries as the precursor archetypes for the resurrection of Christ and afterlife beliefs of Christianity.[38] The ancient Eleusinian Mysteries beliefs centered on the rebirth of Persephone as the mythic image of the eternity of life and initiation was motivated by a reward in the afterlife."

Ok one topic at the time……………about the consensus of scholars:


In conclusion “most scholars accept the empty tomb” and most scholars are conservative religious people.

.. would agree with this conclusion ?
 
Top