• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The ethics of militant and state atheism

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
I want to ask Atheists here on their opinion regarding as to whether Atheists can and should actively seek to eliminate religious belief from public and private life.
I would say no, as long as it does not interfere with education, public policy, the law and so on.
At the moment, I'm looking at the history of communism and am undecided on the issue as the history speaks for itself. My personal opinion is that I am unsure whether religion is compatible with freedom, and consequently suspect religion is incompatible with humanism. On the one hand atheism is part of scientific and moral progress towards greater freedom, whilst on the other it violates long-standing ethical conceptions.

State Atheism, and to a lesser extent militant atheism, self-evidently has some serious human rights implications as it means that individuals lose their "freedom of religion" and that also impacts "freedom of thought" indirectly by the use of state power. Yet at the same time, a lot of our conception of ethics are also derived from religious sources, even in secular systems. So this walks straight into a potentially nihilistic and relativistic realm of thought, which can get pretty ugly.
I think it makes more sense to look at communism under Stalin (for example) as a form of Statism - where the state is worshipped like a god, rather than atheism. Stalin wanted to destroy the power of the Eastern orthodox church, he later rebuilt it as the Russian orthodox church, so for an atheist he sure did open lots of churches.
Mao, along with Kim Jong Il were more like gods in their own right, a cult of personality rather than atheism. I don't think 'atheism' has much meaning in Asia, as they don't really have a conception of a theistic god to disbelieve.
There is also a question as whether an Atheist has the right to talk someone out of their beliefs as Atheists cannot be equal to religious people without it, given how often religion takes on an evangelical form whereas atheists are typically individualists. So I'm going to make a distinction between this on an individual level (trying to talk someone out of religion) and on a social level, because they latter will almost certainly imply using the state to achieve an atheist society.

i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?
No, I think that would be counter-productive. Trying to eliminate a religion could empower it, rather than destroy it. The best approach would be to let them die out on their own.
ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?

I'm not sure on this issue given it's sensitive nature, so all perspectives are welcome.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I think it makes more sense to look at communism under Stalin (for example) as a form of Statism - where the state is worshipped like a god, rather than atheism. Stalin wanted to destroy the power of the Eastern orthodox church, he later rebuilt it as the Russian orthodox church, so for an atheist he sure did open lots of churches.
Mao, along with Kim Jong Il were more like gods in their own right, a cult of personality rather than atheism. I don't think 'atheism' has much meaning in Asia, as they don't really have a conception of a theistic god to disbelieve.

What happened in Communism is a strange perversion of humanism. In seeking to worship man as the source of all moral values, they worshiped the collective entity of man's power; the state. Then it's a small step to personify a leader as the state representing mankind. So yeah, the Communists ended up worshiping Stalin and Mao- and quite literally Kim Jong il in north Korea. Communists started out thinking that god was a projection of the power of the ruling class and the state and parodied themselves by doing exactly the same thing.

No matter how hard the Soviet tried, they couldn't get rid of religion. It went much deeper than they thought- so even after all the anti-religious campaigns they had only eliminated the public appearance of religion, whilst people themselves still believed it. I think There was a census in 1937 in which over half of the population identified as theists.
I think a fair number of churches were either destroyed or turned into museums for atheism (meant as a final insult). In the War, Stalin dropped a fair amount of Marxist ideas and appealed to Russian Nationalism to rally people round; giving the Russian Orthodox Church more lee way was part of that process.

My knowledge of Russian Communism is better than Chinese Communism, but I have heard Confucian teachings did play an influence in so far as the Chinese communists emphasized re-education more. Rather disturbingly, the Russians used psychiatry as a way to "treat" religion as mental illness in a limited number of cases (mainly high-status dissents), but in China's case it was much more widespread and is still being used against religious dissidents today. thankfully, it's more limited, but it's still disturbing.

No, I think that would be counter-productive. Trying to eliminate a religion could empower it, rather than destroy it. The best approach would be to let them die out on their own.

This is pretty much what happened. The 'left-wing' of the communists wants to use state power to eliminate religion by force because they believed it was the product of politics and the persistence of outmoded political ideas (the cultural revolution would be an example of this), whereas the 'right-wing' wanted to let religion die out on it's own because they thought religion had underlying economic causes which the society could only grow out of with time. The history of communism's relationship with religion (whilst it was in power) generally weaved between the two positions.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
What happened in Communism is a strange perversion of humanism. In seeking to worship man as the source of all moral values, they worshiped the collective entity of man's power; the state. Then it's a small step to personify a leader as the state representing mankind. So yeah, the Communists ended up worshiping Stalin and Mao- and quite literally Kim Jong il in north Korea. Communists started out thinking that god was a projection of the power of the ruling class and the state and parodied themselves by doing exactly the same thing.

No matter how hard the Soviet tried, they couldn't get rid of religion. It went much deeper than they thought- so even after all the anti-religious campaigns they had only eliminated the public appearance of religion, whilst people themselves still believed it. I think There was a census in 1937 in which over half of the population identified as theists.
I think a fair number of churches were either destroyed or turned into museums for atheism (meant as a final insult). In the War, Stalin dropped a fair amount of Marxist ideas and appealed to Russian Nationalism to rally people round; giving the Russian Orthodox Church more lee way was part of that process.

My knowledge of Russian Communism is better than Chinese Communism, but I have heard Confucian teachings did play an influence in so far as the Chinese communists emphasized re-education more. Rather disturbingly, the Russians used psychiatry as a way to "treat" religion as mental illness in a limited number of cases (mainly high-status dissents), but in China's case it was much more widespread and is still being used against religious dissidents today. thankfully, it's more limited, but it's still disturbing.



This is pretty much what happened. The 'left-wing' of the communists wants to use state power to eliminate religion by force because they believed it was the product of politics and the persistence of outmoded political ideas (the cultural revolution would be an example of this), whereas the 'right-wing' wanted to let religion die out on it's own because they thought religion had underlying economic causes which the society could only grow out of with time. The history of communism's relationship with religion (whilst it was in power) generally weaved between the two positions.
Thanks so much. I am on the run right now, will answer properly tomorrow.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
What happened in Communism is a strange perversion of humanism. In seeking to worship man as the source of all moral values, they worshiped the collective entity of man's power; the state. Then it's a small step to personify a leader as the state representing mankind. So yeah, the Communists ended up worshiping Stalin and Mao- and quite literally Kim Jong il in north Korea. Communists started out thinking that god was a projection of the power of the ruling class and the state and parodied themselves by doing exactly the same thing.
Well said. I think that communism and capitalism were always mistaken for opposites, but they are not, they both tend to establish the same sort of hierarchical structures. And this is a consequence of such structuring.
No matter how hard the Soviet tried, they couldn't get rid of religion. It went much deeper than they thought- so even after all the anti-religious campaigns they had only eliminated the public appearance of religion, whilst people themselves still believed it. I think There was a census in 1937 in which over half of the population identified as theists.
I think a fair number of churches were either destroyed or turned into museums for atheism (meant as a final insult). In the War, Stalin dropped a fair amount of Marxist ideas and appealed to Russian Nationalism to rally people round; giving the Russian Orthodox Church more lee way was part of that process.

My knowledge of Russian Communism is better than Chinese Communism, but I have heard Confucian teachings did play an influence in so far as the Chinese communists emphasized re-education more. Rather disturbingly, the Russians used psychiatry as a way to "treat" religion as mental illness in a limited number of cases (mainly high-status dissents), but in China's case it was much more widespread and is still being used against religious dissidents today. thankfully, it's more limited, but it's still disturbing.



This is pretty much what happened. The 'left-wing' of the communists wants to use state power to eliminate religion by force because they believed it was the product of politics and the persistence of outmoded political ideas (the cultural revolution would be an example of this), whereas the 'right-wing' wanted to let religion die out on it's own because they thought religion had underlying economic causes which the society could only grow out of with time. The history of communism's relationship with religion (whilst it was in power) generally weaved between the two positions.
China has changed it's attitude towards religion in recent years, they even supply funding to Chinese Christian congregations now. The analysts however suspect that there are several motivations for doing so.
1. It forced the underground Christian churches into the open.
2. It enables the party to demonstrate (or at least claim) greater religious tolerance.
3. (Now this is the big one) Just as Sun Yat Sen, the founding father of the Chinese republic was inspired by Abraham Lincoln when he established the 'Three principles of the People' (nationalism, democracy and welfare), the Party was inspired by what they perceived to be the role of Christianity in making America rich. So they have embraced a form of exclusively Chinese Christianity in order to harness that power.
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well said. I think that communism and capitalism were always mistaken for opposites, but they are not, they both tend to establish the same sort of hierarchical structures. And this is a consequence of such structuring.

Both Communism and capitalism have worked with the same technologies and therefore developed similar organizational structures. It is highly debatable how far the hierarchical nature of Communism was a betrayal of Communism's egalitarian ideals, but there is a good body of evidence to show that it was not helpful and vanguardist politics was self-defeating in building democratic societies. It could well be argued that the tension between having a vanguard and a majority of the population that are not communist, was responsible for a considerable amount of ideological violence as communists sought to build a society based on a 'pure' faith.

China has changed it's attitude towards religion in recent years, they even supply funding to Chinese Christian congregations now. The analysts however suspect that there are several motivations for doing so.
1. It forced the underground Christian churches into the open.
2. It enables the party to demonstrate (or at least claim) greater religious tolerance.
3. (Now this is the big one) Just as Sun Yat Sen, the founding father of the Chinese republic was inspired by Abraham Lincoln when he established the 'Three principles of the People' (nationalism, democracy and welfare), the Party was inspired by what they perceived to be the role of Christianity in making America rich. So they have embraced a form of exclusively Chinese Christianity in order to harness that power.

The last one sounds exactly like what Communists would do, as they will be looking for a relationship between economics and ideology. In so far as Christianity may serve their purposes they will promote it whilst still retaining power. Plus if they control the funding, they control the religion itself.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
Both Communism and capitalism have worked with the same technologies and therefore developed similar organizational structures. It is highly debatable how far the hierarchical nature of Communism was a betrayal of Communism's egalitarian ideals, but there is a good body of evidence to show that it was not helpful and vanguardist politics was self-defeating in building democratic societies. It could well be argued that the tension between having a vanguard and a majority of the population that are not communist, was responsible for a considerable amount of ideological violence as communists sought to build a society based on a 'pure' faith.



The last one sounds exactly like what Communists would do, as they will be looking for a relationship between economics and ideology. In so far as Christianity may serve their purposes they will promote it whilst still retaining power. Plus if they control the funding, they control the religion itself.
Yeah, I think it is a sound assessment. Chinese communism, like Chinese Christianity will be essentially Chinese - inspired by Marx or course, but their own unique creation.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?
Doubtful.

From what I know and have looked into, I believe religion is most likely an innate part of humanity. Not all individuals have it, but it has sprung up in almost every single culture. Lack of religion in practice also tends to be a bit of a luxury. Whenever disasters happen or economic hardships occur, religion statistically strengthens in society. It's something people fall back to during times of difficulty.

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?
I think it's certainly fair to constructively criticize bad ideas when they pop up. Some contexts make more sense than others, though. I think the practice of going up to people to evangelize is silly in almost of all of its forms, personally.

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?
I strongly say no.

Freedom of belief and expression is critical for any free and flourishing society, and should be tolerated up until it begins to directly hurt others. There are some debatable lines around where certain beliefs begin to resemble child abuse and could at times be treated as such, but largely, I think government should stay out of religious affairs whenever possible.

Repression of religion is just as bad as a repressive theocracy.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I want to ask Atheists here on their opinion regarding as to whether Atheists can and should actively seek to eliminate religious belief from public and private life.

At the moment, I'm looking at the history of communism and am undecided on the issue as the history speaks for itself. My personal opinion is that I am unsure whether religion is compatible with freedom, and consequently suspect religion is incompatible with humanism. On the one hand atheism is part of scientific and moral progress towards greater freedom, whilst on the other it violates long-standing ethical conceptions.

State Atheism, and to a lesser extent militant atheism, self-evidently has some serious human rights implications as it means that individuals lose their "freedom of religion" and that also impacts "freedom of thought" indirectly by the use of state power. Yet at the same time, a lot of our conception of ethics are also derived from religious sources, even in secular systems. So this walks straight into a potentially nihilistic and relativistic realm of thought, which can get pretty ugly.

One thing that strikes me about revolution and its relationship with religion is that the religious authority might be associated with the state authority that a revolutionary would openly challenge. So, in a period of post-revolutionary desire for revenge against former oppressors, the church authorities might very well be judged equally guilty as the state authorities.

Considering the enormous power the church has held over the centuries, as well as holding the hearts and minds of the masses for so long, one might well wonder why the church was not the leading vanguard for revolution in Russia, Europe, or elsewhere in the world. If the Christian church leaders were genuine and true to their beliefs, they would have (and should have) staunchly opposed any form of tyranny, monarchism, greed, aristocracy, inequality, and any other malignant government ruled by terror, oppression, theft, and murder. Instead, they shared power with those malignant governments and told their flocks to be obedient and passive, to "obey their master."

That religion ended up on the post-revolutionary chopping block is not all that surprising, and yes, it did get rather ugly. But all those centuries of oppression and tyranny, aided and abetted by religion, most likely fueled the revolutionaries' anger and desire for retribution against their former oppressors. It's likely that they didn't see a church as a "house of god," but rather, they might have seen it as a fraud, a symbol of tsarist oppression.

There is also a question as whether an Atheist has the right to talk someone out of their beliefs as Atheists cannot be equal to religious people without it, given how often religion takes on an evangelical form whereas atheists are typically individualists. So I'm going to make a distinction between this on an individual level (trying to talk someone out of religion) and on a social level, because they latter will almost certainly imply using the state to achieve an atheist society.

i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?

I don't think religion or religious beliefs can be eliminated entirely, although it's certainly possible to reduce religion from an establishment-level institution. One possible way would be to redefine them as political organizations, since that's what they've turned into in practice. This would not necessarily impact any form of free speech or freedom of thought (which clearly imply "freedom of religion" without having to use that exact phrase), but it might have the effect of bringing religious institutions down from their lofty perches and put them in the mud with the rest of us.

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?

They can try, but why would they? People can believe whatever they want to believe.

The main problem that I see with religion is not so much in the beliefs themselves, but the fact that they're trying to apply contrived, unproven beliefs in real life situations where they're forced to "wing it" out of practical necessity. Strictly speaking, if the beliefs were valid and people in a society were true and faithful to those beliefs, then there would really be no need for any governmental or state authority at all. Even the authority of the church would be irrelevant, if all humans are considered equal as "God's children."

If someone wants to believe in God, no problem. If, however, they wish to submit themselves to a quasi-political institution run and managed by human beings who seek earthly power, authority, and wealth, then they're doing something political and opening themselves up to public questions and debate. I don't really consider it "a private matter" at that point.

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?

I'm not sure on this issue given it's sensitive nature, so all perspectives are welcome.

Well, politics is a dirty business and not for the faint of heart. While many Americans hold to the principle of separation of church and state, it doesn't mean that religion and politics can be totally divorced from each other. If religion allows itself to become a tool to further a political agenda, then they've put themselves on the playing field and willingly subjecting themselves to the consequences for doing so.

I'm probably more agnostic than atheist, although my views tend to overlap, so it's hard for me to pick one or the other word to describe myself. To answer your question, I would say the answer is yes, atheists can use politics and the state, although the big question is how. By invoking the 1st Amendment and the principle of the separation of church and state, the removal of religion from public, taxpayer-supported institutions has proven to be achievable. But that may have come with certain costs in political capital, as atheists might be seen as challenging only the "belief" and not the political institution directly.
 
Last edited:

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
By invoking the 1st Amendment and the principle of the separation of church and state, the removal of religion from public, taxpayer-supported institutions has proven to be achievable.

Conservatives have been changing the means of the first amendment from "freedom of religion" so that it does not imply "freedom from religion". Atheism is therefore attacked as a legitimate belief under the First amendment.

That religion ended up on the post-revolutionary chopping block is not all that surprising, and yes, it did get rather ugly. But all those centuries of oppression and tyranny, aided and abetted by religion, most likely fueled the revolutionaries' anger and desire for retribution against their former oppressors. It's likely that they didn't see a church as a "house of god," but rather, they might have seen it as a fraud, a symbol of tsarist oppression.

Yeah. That's exactly what happened. the Church came to be viewed as the 'ideological' arm of the oppressing,exploiting class and was therefore considered a legitimate target for persecution under Communist systems. The emphasis was really on this political association of religion rather than whether it was a true belief. The treatment of religion differed; Islam got better treatment than the Russian Orthodox Church in the 1920's and early 30's in the USSR as it was considered a belief system belonging to a colonial or exploited people in central Asia.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
These are my recent conclusions

i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?
No. I think something like it will always exist.

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?
Intentionally? Usually no. I think only when those ideas are either violent, criminal, otherwise harmful to others than the individual themselves. Some people don't have either desire or strength to stand on their own, we shouldn't try forcing them out of their comfort zone. A weak believer when challenged may lead to strong reaction.

If the belief relates to science then correcting mistakes such as what is known to today's science is always good. I think it's a benefit to all.

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?
No, I think everyone has their right to believe whether I consider it pleasing or offensive.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?
i) I doubt it.

ii) Probably not.

iii) Absolutely not.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
It has been stated already in the thread but here is my take.

No there should never be a forceful removal of religion on the personal level of any kind. I may challenge individual's beliefs in discussion but I will never tell them that they "can't" believe. I do feel that religion should be neutered so to speak in the lawmaking arena. I don't think religion should be the basis of any laws and certainly not have any bias towards any one religion.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I think that most of effects of religion on politics is about money and votes (which through campaign ads, is also about money).

Many churches in the US act like corporate entities, producing faith through advertising, architecture, media, and personality. If religion is their product, tithing is how they make money.

If the goal is to reduce religion's influence, would it be easier to let people gather and worship publicly however they wish, but restrict the intake and spending of money? What would be the implications of enforcing that, and how would it change religions public influence?
 

Typist

Active Member
i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?

We might reframe these questions to focus on behavior instead of belief.

As example, can murderous fascists be eliminated from society? It doesn't matter whether they are Stalinists (atheist) or the Taliban (theist), what matters is that they are murderous fascists.

The vast majority of both theists and atheists are peaceful constructive members of society, so focusing on beliefs sweeps huge numbers of irrelevant people in to the category of concern. Seems more productive to focus on specific objectionable behaviors.

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?

If the religious person invites or is receptive to such a conversation. It wouldn't be a rational constructive conversation otherwise. The same answer in the opposite direction.

In either direction, attempting to persuade the other side of our view presumes we are in a position to know what does or doesn't lie at the center of all reality, a HUGE presumption which seems rather hilariously and preposterously arrogant.

But, so long as we keep our sense of humor, and everybody involved is having fun, no harm no foul.

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?

We should keep in mind is that both atheists and theists will bring their views in to the public square and voting booth, as they have a right to do. Thus, there is really no way short of dictatorship to keep both atheist and theist beliefs out of politics or state policy.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
I want to ask Atheists here on their opinion regarding as to whether Atheists can and should actively seek to eliminate religious belief from public and private life.

At the moment, I'm looking at the history of communism and am undecided on the issue as the history speaks for itself. My personal opinion is that I am unsure whether religion is compatible with freedom, and consequently suspect religion is incompatible with humanism. On the one hand atheism is part of scientific and moral progress towards greater freedom, whilst on the other it violates long-standing ethical conceptions.

State Atheism, and to a lesser extent militant atheism, self-evidently has some serious human rights implications as it means that individuals lose their "freedom of religion" and that also impacts "freedom of thought" indirectly by the use of state power. Yet at the same time, a lot of our conception of ethics are also derived from religious sources, even in secular systems. So this walks straight into a potentially nihilistic and relativistic realm of thought, which can get pretty ugly.

There is also a question as whether an Atheist has the right to talk someone out of their beliefs as Atheists cannot be equal to religious people without it, given how often religion takes on an evangelical form whereas atheists are typically individualists. So I'm going to make a distinction between this on an individual level (trying to talk someone out of religion) and on a social level, because they latter will almost certainly imply using the state to achieve an atheist society.

i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?

I'm not sure on this issue given it's sensitive nature, so all perspectives are welcome.
Having a society without religion seems appealing to me but there is no way to effectively remove religion without causing a backlash of exactly what we wouldn't want. The best way to promote something is for the government to ban it.

i) I am of the belief that it can be reduced to an inconsequential amount. Look at New Zeland and Australia for examples. GB, Switzerland and France are all dashing that way at full speed. Sweden and Norway are also very low on the religious scale. Just general education and a lack of fervent need of religion slowly withers it away.

ii) I would say no unless those religious beliefs are becoming harmful to that person or others. I attempt to talk about out of religious beliefs all the time in terms of bigotry against homosexuals or other such situations.

iii) No. But I think there should be a political movement to have religion removed from politics. However I feel it would ultimately be unsuccessful. See the point prior to 'i'.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I think that eventually religion may likely die out on its own. I also think the state should remain entirely neutral towards religion, and not promote theism or atheism.
 

Underhill

Well-Known Member
The mistake of this question is in assuming that the opposite of religion is atheism. But the opposite of religion is education or scientific learning.

Atheism is the opposite of theism. Religion is a system of belief without evidence (The bible even says so, "Faith is the evidence of things hoped for..."). Scientific learning is a search for answers based in evidence.

It's not a perfect comparison only because religion is a conclusion. "I believe" being at the heart of it. Learning is an action.... a quest. One is contentment with ignorance while the other is a search for truth. But it is the closest corollary I can make.

We don't need to enforce atheism any more than religion should be pushed on us. But education tends to lead people down the path of either more enlightened religion or a disillusionment of religion entirely.

This is why Christianity is what it is today in America (as imperfect as they can be christians are mostly a peaceful bunch) while the Muslim faith has remained violent and barbaric in some parts of the world.
 
Last edited:

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
i) can religion be eliminated in society as a whole?

ii) should an atheist try to talk a person out of their religious beliefs?

iii) should atheists use politics and the state as a way to promote atheism and/or eliminate religion?

I'm not sure on this issue given it's sensitive nature, so all perspectives are welcome.

i) no I don't think so but I think the face and identity of religious practices and beliefs is consistently changing by which original identity can be eradicated over the course of time.

i i) no. I think discussion and debate is paramount, even essential at times, but in the end it's not something that requires any conformity just because someone feels and sees things differently. People must find and discover things on their own and by their own terms and timeframe.

i i i) No. Its actually impractible to do so and wouldn't be much benefit as such uses of authority only promotes isolationism. Same of course lies true with the converse such as in theocratic societies.
 
Top