The curious case of Islam

[KWED]

That is by no means limited to Islam. Christians can easily do this with the Bible. And when it comes to Talmud and Torah? Oh my.

Indeed. The Quran is essentially no different to any other religion in that respect.
The point is that (as with other religions and their scripture) some of the violent, intolerant, oppressive behaviour is sanctioned and justified by the Quran and sunnah. Islam is regarded as violent because it does contain violent concepts within the ideology. It's certainly not all about violence, but it is certainly there, so ignoring or denying it is pointless and even counter productive. The violence can only be eliminated if it is rejected on an fundamental level rather than rationalised or excused.

 

[KWED]

The majority of the world uses Arabic numerals so I don't know why the '1' in 16 (age of marriage) and 19 (age of consumation) was omitted.

I have no idea what you are talking about there.

Islam is against slavery

Nonsense. Islam explicitly allows and regulates slavery. Muhammad owned and traded slaves.

and before Islam women weren't allowed to own property,etc.

More nonsense from Islamic propaganda websites.
Muhammad's first wife owned Mecca's largest trading empire. She inherited it from her father. Muhammad was initially employed by her as an agent for her business before they married. This was all before he started Islam.

My question (s) are why Muslims have done, and still do, so many bad things when their religion has the same Prophets as Judaism and Christianity. Why do they have to be so different ?

People do bad things with or without religion. However, Islamic scripture contains many exhortations and prescription to violence, so some Muslims might well take those literally - given that the Quran is the literal, perfect, unchangeable word of god.

For instance, do you think Muslims are acting against their religion when they sentence people to have a hand cut off for theft, or flogged for fornication, or crucified for "spreading mischief"? If so, why are such things explicitly prescribed in the Quran?

 

[KWED]

People are generally inclined to tribalism. If it's not religion it's something else. However there are cultural differences.

I have seen several public insults of Christianity (in the name of artistic freedom) and not one throat was cut by any Christian.

Perhaps not, but go back a few hundred years and it would have been different. In some respects, Islam is a few centuries behind Christianity.

 

[ronki23]

I have no idea what you are talking about there.

Nonsense. Islam explicitly allows and regulates slavery. Muhammad owned and traded slaves.

More nonsense from Islamic propaganda websites.
Muhammad's first wife owned Mecca's largest trading empire. She inherited it from her father. Muhammad was initially employed by her as an agent for her business before they married. This was all before he started Islam.

People do bad things with or without religion. However, Islamic scripture contains many exhortations and prescription to violence, so some Muslims might well take those literally - given that the Quran is the literal, perfect, unchangeable word of god.

For instance, do you think Muslims are acting against their religion when they sentence people to have a hand cut off for theft, or flogged for fornication, or crucified for "spreading mischief"? If so, why are such things explicitly prescribed in the Quran?

I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that the Bible prescribes some ****ty things as well.

In Hinduism people can misunderstand Krishna's message of "doing your duty with 'devotion'". Does that not sound like Islam's promise of 72 Virgins in Janna? Hindus do ****ty things as well.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Perhaps not, but go back a few hundred years and it would have been different. In some respects, Islam is a few centuries behind Christianity.

Yes. Many things have happened to (and transformed) Christian culture: renaissance, reformation, enlightenment, French revolution etc. Islam seems to be unable to transform drastically.

 

[KWED]

I am not a Muslim so I would like to ask you why some Muslim men marry children

Anything that Muhammad did is considered sunnah, acceptable or approved behaviour. He married a child and so it is deemed acceptable in Islam (the details vary with different scholars and many in the west now want Islamic practice to fall in line with modern western morality). There is also a verse in the Quran that is interpreted by classical scholars as permitting marriage to very young girls.

and why some Muslims keep slaves.

They don't any more. At least legally. Slavery was legal in some Middle Eastern countries until the 1960s because it is permitted in the Quran and sunnah (the constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Quran and Sunnah).

What happened to the Polytheists of Saudi Arabia ?

They submitted to Islam or were killed/exiled - exactly as it says in the Quran and sunnah...
"I have been commanded to fight the disbelievers until they believe as we do. Then their lives and property will be saved from us." - Muhammad in several sahih hadith.

 

[KWED]

I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that the Bible prescribes some ****ty things as well.

Yes it does (the Old Testament, at least). Much of the Quran is derived from the Torah and Old Testament, so there are naturally similarities.

In Hinduism people can misunderstand Krishna's message of "doing your duty with 'devotion'". Does that not sound like Islam's promise of 72 Virgins in Janna?

Not really. A command to "do your duty with devotion" just sounds like ordering people to do their duty with effort and sincerity. No implication that you must be violent and intolerant, unless there are other passages that clearly show violent and intolerant acts to be part of "doing your duty".

Hindus do ****ty things as well.

Yes they do. But are there passages in Hindu scripture that prescribe doing those ****ty things?

 

[KWED]

Yes. Many things have happened to (and transformed) Christian culture: renaissance, reformation, enlightenment, French revolution etc. Islam seems to be unable to transform drastically.

The lack of a central, supreme authority is a problem, but there also seems to be this idea amongst some that refusal to change is somehow virtuous and necessary.

 

[sun rise]

given that the Quran is the literal, perfect, unchangeable word of god.

Can you site some fanatics claiming that the entire Quran needs to be interpreted literally?

 

[KWED]

Can you site some fanatics claiming that the entire Quran needs to be interpreted literally?

It's not just "fanatics". It is an established and widely held belief.
50% of US Muslims believe the Quran should be read literally.
Appendix A: U.S. Muslims: Beliefs and Practices in a Global Context

 

[sayak83]

I am a Hindu in that I follow the Sikh Gurus and the Buddhas like many other Hindus do. I believe the Mahabharat and Ramayana were real events. However, I too disagree with several parts of the Mahabharat and Geeta:

A) Arjun married his first cousin Subudehra. She was the sister of Krishna and Krishna's father Vasudev was the brother of Arjun's mother Kunti. We do not marry our first cousins in Hinduism.

B) Bhishma and Drona fought against the Pandavs despite loving them as much as the Kauravas: they should not have partaken in the battle of Kurukshetra if that was the case

C) Krishna offered his army to Duryodan when he could've ended the war before it even began

D) Krishna told Arjun to attack Karna when Karna's chariot was stuck.

E) Krishna told Bhim to hit Duryodan's thigh even though that was against the rules

F) Krishna says to do your Dharam (duty) but that may lead people to do bad things

So in Hinduism there are bad people as well like Nathuram Godse or the Congress supporters who killed 5000+ Sikhs in 1984.

@Aupmanyav wasn't it the case that Godhra wasn't BJP's fault ?

@JustGeorge @sayak83 @Kirran

It's fine to disagree with any and every aspect of Hinduism.
So what is your question?

 

[ronki23]

Yes it does (the Old Testament, at least). Much of the Quran is derived from the Torah and Old Testament, so there are naturally similarities.

Not really. A command to "do your duty with devotion" just sounds like ordering people to do their duty with effort and sincerity. No implication that you must be violent and intolerant, unless there are other passages that clearly show violent and intolerant acts to be part of "doing your duty".

Yes they do. But are there passages in Hindu scripture that prescribe doing those ****ty things?

In Sikhism there was militancy in the 80s with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale et al. The majority of Sikhs support Bhindranwale because he wanted more rights for the Sikhs. However, many people think he was a terrorist because the Golden Temple Complex was equipped with rifles, AK-47, rocket launchers and bazooka. So this can be seen as terrorism even though Bhindranwale et al didn't kill anyone until the attack on the Golden Temple when it was self defence.

The 1985 Air India bombing by Babber Khalsa was done by Khalistani Sikhs. Bhindranwale himself said he didn't want Khalistan but more rights for Sikhs in India. Besides he was dead at this point.

So even Sikhs can be seen as terrorists in the eyes of some people

 

[Link]

@Link
@Godobeyer

I am not a Muslim so I would like to ask you why some Muslim men marry children and why some Muslims keep slaves.

What happened to the Polytheists of Saudi Arabia ?

Salam

When Imam Hussain (a) was killed, corruption of Islam and understanding of Quran became severe. The Sunnah severely distorted. If you look at Sunni and Shia law, they almost the same. So to me that means in time Shiism embraced those severe distortions talked about in Ziyarats and Du'as and hadiths.

Keep in mind sorcerers and talking to devils from Jinn, was a norm for Arabs before Mohammad (s) came, and not everyone accepted Mohammad (s) who outwardly testified to him. Many still believed he was a sorcerer that just had more power then everyone else.

The Quran says marriage is at the age of person's prime and enough for mature guidance, that can't be a kid.

As for slavery it's mainly a distortion from a word that is supposed to mainly emphasize on Muta as a form of sexual ownership, just as marriage is a form of a man and women owning each other (marriage is a sexual contract of sexual ownership of each other), there is second form which is revealed per Quran words "for those who fear the curse" of falling into sin.

It was distorted to be about slaves, far is God above ever allowing slavery!

 

[KWED]

In Sikhism there was militancy in the 80s with Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale et al. The majority of Sikhs support Bhindranwale because he wanted more rights for the Sikhs. However, many people think he was a terrorist because the Golden Temple Complex was equipped with rifles, AK-47, rocket launchers and bazooka. So this can be seen as terrorism even though Bhindranwale et al didn't kill anyone until the attack on the Golden Temple when it was self defence.

The 1985 Air India bombing by Babber Khalsa was done by Khalistani Sikhs. Bhindranwale himself said he didn't want Khalistan but more rights for Sikhs in India. Besides he was dead at this point.

So even Sikhs can be seen as terrorists in the eyes of some people

You seem to be missing the point - is there anything in Sikh scripture that prescribes or justifies such actions, or were the motivations purely political?

 

[KWED]

When Imam Hussain (a) was killed, corruption of Islam and understanding of Quran became severe. The Sunnah severely distorted.

In your opinion - which we know can be somewhat fanciful.

Keep in mind sorcerers and talking to devils from Jinn, was a norm for Arabs before Mohammad (s) came, and not everyone accepted Mohammad (s) who outwardly testified to him. Many still believed he was a sorcerer that just had more power then everyone else.

Ah yes, "dark magic" has corrupted the Quran and Allah could do nothing to protect it.

The Quran says marriage is the age of person's prime and enough for mature guidance, that can't be a kid.

No it doesn't. You are just making stuff up again.

As for slavery it's mainly a distortion from a word that is supposed to mainly emphasize on Muta as a form of sexual ownership, just as marriage is a form of a man and women owning each other (marriage is a sexual contract of sexual ownership of each other), there is second form which is revealed per Quran words "for those who fear the curse" of falling into sin.

It was distorted to be about slaves, far is God above ever allowing slavery!

Look, I understand that you (and others) dislike the idea of slavery, but god is fine with it, as was Muhammad. I guess that's why you invented your new religion, so you could do away with the aspects of Islam and Allah that you find unacceptable.

 

[Link]

In your opinion - which we know can be somewhat fanciful.

Ah yes, "dark magic" has corrupted the Quran and Allah could do nothing to protect it.

No it doesn't. You are just making stuff up again.

Look, I understand that you (and others) dislike the idea of slavery, but god is fine with it, as was Muhammad. I guess that's why you invented your new religion, so you could do away with the aspects of Islam and Allah that you find unacceptable.

Everyone can do their own research. I've made threads about each of these issues.

He asked me and so I answered.

 

[PearlSeeker]

The lack of a central, supreme authority is a problem, but there also seems to be this idea amongst some that refusal to change is somehow virtuous and necessary.

In the Middle Ages there was the Arab Golden Age of science, reason, innovation... but it never recurred. Possible reasons are analized here:

Why the Arabic World Turned Away from Science — The New Atlantis

 

[sun rise]

It's not just "fanatics". It is an established and widely held belief.
50% of US Muslims believe the Quran should be read literally.
Appendix A: U.S. Muslims: Beliefs and Practices in a Global Context

That was a decade ago. Here's a survey from 2017 that can be viewed in a interesting way 6. Religious beliefs and practices The number of Muslims who say there is more than one true way to interpret Islam is 2:1 yes with a growing number saying yes the younger the demographic.

This survey of mosque leaders is interesting as well. Report 2 of the US Mosque Survey 2020: Perspectives and Activities
The literal, extremely conservative Salafi approach (akin to Wahhabi thought) has largely disappeared among American mosques: Less than 1% of mosques follow this approach.

 

[KWED]

That was a decade ago. Here's a survey from 2017 that can be viewed in a interesting way 6. Religious beliefs and practices The number of Muslims who say there is more than one true way to interpret Islam is 2:1 yes with a growing number saying yes the younger the demographic.

That survey shows only 52% of US Muslims believing that traditional understanding needs to be reinterpreted. Which is pretty much the same as the one I cited.

This survey of mosque leaders is interesting as well. Report 2 of the US Mosque Survey 2020: Perspectives and Activities
The literal, extremely conservative Salafi approach (akin to Wahhabi thought) has largely disappeared among American mosques: Less than 1% of mosques follow this approach.

Straw man.
I never claimed that 50% of US Muslims were Wahhabists. You don't need to be a Wahabbi to favour a traditional/literalist approach to the Quran. And again, that report shows 55% of mosques following a more flexible approach - which means 45% do not, so still around a half.

Number wrangling aside, we can agree that a traditional/literalist approach to Islam is not an extremist/fringe/minority, etc, but a well established and common approach.

 

[ronki23]

You seem to be missing the point - is there anything in Sikh scripture that prescribes or justifies such actions, or were the motivations purely political?

Sikhism does not condone terrorism or killing civilians. Air India Flight 182 was bombed by Babber Khalsa: Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale died 1 year before this and he was never part of Babber Khalsa. Sikhism only condones violence for defensive purposes



Sikhs are very big on selfless service (sewa). But Islam also requires you pay 2.5% of your earnings to charity.