• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The curious case of Islam

ronki23

Well-Known Member
How to abuse a word twisting its meaning. Marriage of early teenagers was perfectly ok in the US. So what your asserting is that some US states have made rape legal because of someone's age Marriage Age by State 2022

Here are some additional notes by state:
  • Massachusetts: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 14; for females is 12.
  • New Hampshire: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 14; for females is 13.
States with No Minimum Age

As of July 1, 2019, 12 states have no minimum age when all exemptions are taken into account. These states are: California, Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Washington, West Virginia, and Wyoming.

But if you want to refer to age of consent to sex by nation? You see the age goes from 21 down to 11:
Age of Consent by Country 2022

I personally think the age of consumation should be at least 16 although a lot of people think it should be 18. Anything below 16 is too low.

According to those laws in the US states, you can get married before driving or drinking alcohol ? Also it makes no sense you can get married but not consumate
 

JustGeorge

Not As Much Fun As I Look
Staff member
Premium Member
I am a Hindu in that I follow the Sikh Gurus and the Buddhas like many other Hindus do. I believe the Mahabharat and Ramayana were real events. However, I too disagree with several parts of the Mahabharat and Geeta:

A) Arjun married his first cousin Subudehra. She was the sister of Krishna and Krishna's father Vasudev was the brother of Arjun's mother Kunti. We do not marry our first cousins in Hinduism.

B) Bhishma and Drona fought against the Pandavs despite loving them as much as the Kauravas: they should not have partaken in the battle of Kurukshetra if that was the case

C) Krishna offered his army to Duryodan when he could've ended the war before it even began

D) Krishna told Arjun to attack Karna when Karna's chariot was stuck.

E) Krishna told Bhim to hit Duryodan's thigh even though that was against the rules

F) Krishna says to do your Dharam (duty) but that may lead people to do bad things

So in Hinduism there are bad people as well like Nathuram Godse or the Congress supporters who killed 5000+ Sikhs in 1984.

@Aupmanyav wasn't it the case that Godhra wasn't BJP's fault ?

@JustGeorge @sayak83 @Kirran

I'm not a scholar, so what I say is only guesses, suggestions, or my own interpretation. But, since you asked me...

A) I'm unsure of any rules who can marry who at any point in Hinduism. That doesn't mean they're not there, it just means if they are or not, I don't know. However, this happened in the Dvapara yuga. Was this possibly not a restriction at this time?

B)I believe Bhisma's loyalty was to Hastinapura. Though he loved all his grandsons, it was his duty to fight on behalf of Hastinapura regardless of feelings.

C)What would have happened if the war hadn't happened?

D), E), Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu, who preserves. Perhaps these actions were necessary for dharma to be held overall, even if they didn't seem dharmic in the moment. The same action can be dharmic in once instance, and adharmic in another.

F)Can you give some examples?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Ronki, all actions have equal and opposite reactions. Newton's law.
Yeah, Krishna was partial and opportunistic in Mahabharata.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
Ronki, all actions have equal and opposite reactions. Newton's law.
Yeah, Krishna was partial and opportunistic in Mahabharata.

There are bad Hindus like the rioters in 1984 and 2002.

How was Modi cleared for Godhra because Babubhai Patel blamed him ?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
A) I'm unsure of any rules who can marry who at any point in Hinduism. That doesn't mean they're not there, it just means if they are or not, I don't know. However, this happened in the Dvapara yuga. Was this possibly not a restriction at this time?
What is written in books does not matter now. Hindus do not have a 'sharia'. We have new laws, 18 is the age of consent and marriage (some times relaxed by Supreme Court).
However, Manusmriti says that a girl has the right to marry anyone if the father does not get her married within three months of her reaching puberty. :)
There are bad Hindus like the rioters in 1984 and 2002.
How was Modi cleared for Godhra because Babubhai Patel blamed him ?
Indian Supreme Court has said that the case that Modi government was involved in Godhra riots falls like a house of cards. There is not even a shred of evidence for that. Of course, the government failed to cope with the situation. The Suprme Court further ordered that those who blamed Modi for Godhra riots should be investigated. Consequently, Teesta Setalvad is currently in jail.
India has full faith in its Supreme Court and its Election Commission.
 
Last edited:

soulsurvivor

Active Member
Premium Member
Islam is from the same family as Judaism and Christianity: they have Adam & Eve, Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus but the adherents of Islam tend to be Arab, Sub Saharan, Pathan, Baloch, Tajikistan, Persian and Turkic. Islam requires you to fast during Ramadan and encourages Sunnis to pray 5x a day.

Jews and Christians tend to live in harmony in the USA and Eastern Europe. Although they were driven out of Western Europe by the Nazis they have started to return.

Why are Muslims perceived to be more violent than the other world religions ? For example, the partition of India and Kashmir were violent events ? Even the vast majority of Muslims hate Israel and the Jews because they feel the Palestinians were robbed of their land.

Why is Islam so different from Judaism and Christianity despite the fact they are from the same family and even race (Semites and Sub Saharan African) ?
Islam never had A Reformation and The Enlightenment which toned down Christian fundamentalism (although it still exists as a minority). Islam is pretty much the way it was 1200 years ago. Jews on the other hand have been through centuries of persecution and suffering - that has also reduced their fundamentalism (but it still exists like among settlers in the West Bank).
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Islam is from the same family as Judaism and Christianity: they have Adam & Eve, Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus but the adherents of Islam tend to be Arab, Sub Saharan, Pathan, Baloch, Tajikistan, Persian and Turkic. Islam requires you to fast during Ramadan and encourages Sunnis to pray 5x a day.

Jews and Christians tend to live in harmony in the USA and Eastern Europe. Although they were driven out of Western Europe by the Nazis they have started to return.

Why are Muslims perceived to be more violent than the other world religions ? For example, the partition of India and Kashmir were violent events ? Even the vast majority of Muslims hate Israel and the Jews because they feel the Palestinians were robbed of their land.

Why is Islam so different from Judaism and Christianity despite the fact they are from the same family and even race (Semites and Sub Saharan African) ?
The similarity between Christianity and Islam is that they were the religions of conquering nations whose by no means unusual habit was to convert the conquered to the conqueror's religion.

The dissimilarity between Christianity and Islam on the one hand and Judaism on the other is that Judaism had ceased to have a secular power center with the fall of the Himyarite kingdom to the Christians in 525 CE.
 

Vee

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But WHY are they more violent ?

There's approximately 2 billion Muslims on this planet: not even 1% of them are violent. Of course those condoning violence is higher than those partaking in the violence.

Both critics and followers of Islam tell us to read the Qu'ran

I don't know the exact answer to that question. Maybe no one really does.
There is probably a mix of factors involved - the fact that many of their pears condone that violence being one of them.
Most people on earth live peaceful lives, but there are always a few that sort out of the lot being seriously messed up and engaging in the most horrendous acts for reasons that a normal, decent human being couldn't possibly understand.
I believe that the environment has a lot to do with that. A Muslim person who drives a car into a crowd is not that different from a student that kills his colleagues in school with a gun. Both are evil, abhorrent acts. One of them might be motivated by some sort of religious mentality, but the other isn't, yet the result is the same.
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
If you publish something that is considered an insult to the prophet/religion you are in big trouble. Sooner or later there will show up someone who will react violently. This seems to be characteristic.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
someone put the phrase "husbands may beat their wives gently" into the Koran
The Quran does not specify "gently". It merely says "beat them". The word used to describe beating a wife in 4:34 is in the same form as the word used to describe striking enemies in battle in 8:12.

An interesting point though...in Christianity, a person who gave up their own life in martyredom was not an individual intent on killing others by dying in the act of violence. I see the islamic model as being a false religion because to them, taking out infidels in an act of violent martyredom produces an elevated afterlife.
What better way to persuade people give their lives fighting for a cause than to promise them a fantastic paradise in the afterlife where they have whatever they desire. Oh, and the promise that they can keep a share of any of the valuables and women that are captured.

That is just complete nonsense...clearly an evil act from a false religion.
Not a particularly high bar though. All religions are clearly false and contain nonsense.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Islam is from the same family as Judaism and Christianity: they have Adam & Eve, Abraham, Noah, Moses and Jesus but the adherents of Islam tend to be Arab, Sub Saharan, Pathan, Baloch, Tajikistan, Persian and Turkic. Islam requires you to fast during Ramadan and encourages Sunnis to pray 5x a day.

Jews and Christians tend to live in harmony in the USA and Eastern Europe. Although they were driven out of Western Europe by the Nazis they have started to return.

Why are Muslims perceived to be more violent than the other world religions ? For example, the partition of India and Kashmir were violent events ? Even the vast majority of Muslims hate Israel and the Jews because they feel the Palestinians were robbed of their land.

Why is Islam so different from Judaism and Christianity despite the fact they are from the same family and even race (Semites and Sub Saharan African) ?
It is important to acknowledge the difference between "Islam" (as defined by the contents of the Quran and sunnah), and "the behaviour of individual Muslims", which covers pretty much the entire spectrum of human behaviour. What is interesting is that many of them can point to some passage of the Quran or sunnah that they claim supports their position, whatever that might be.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Because they are constantly involved in violent acts?
People of all faiths, and none, are regularly involved in violent acts. The issue is with how they attempt to justify those acts.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
If the conventional wisdom that religion causes violence is so incoherent, why is it so prevalent?
But it isn't incoherent. It is demonstrably true that some people use religion to justify violence.
Claiming that it is the only cause, or that is necessarily causes violence is obvious nonsense - but no one makes those claims.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Because some idiots think Muhammad had sex with a 9 year old when it was a mistranslation

View attachment 65421
It has been accepted knowledge amongst Islamic scholars for 1400 years that Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 and had sex with her when she was 9. It is not a "mistranslation". It is based on several sahih hadith found in the most reliable and authentic (in an Islamic context) collections. No one ever questioned it until recently when sceptics raised the issue as a problem with the claim that Muhammad is the perfect moral exemplar for all mankind.
The argument that you cite has been refuted - by Muslim scholars.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Because illiterate people in Muslim countries get wedded to child brides
Just because something is morally unacceptable today doesn't mean that it therefore can't be part of Islam. Look at keeping slaves, using female captives for sex, and torturing people to death. We can't judge life in 7th century Arabia by our 21st century, western morality (unless people claim that 7th century Arab morality should apply today, of course).
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
How to abuse a word twisting its meaning. Marriage of early teenagers was perfectly ok in the US. So what your asserting is that some US states have made rape legal because of someone's age Marriage Age by State 2022

Here are some additional notes by state:
  • Massachusetts: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 14; for females is 12.
  • New Hampshire: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 14; for females is 13.
States with No Minimum Age

As of July 1, 2019, 12 states have no minimum age when all exemptions are taken into account. These states are: California, Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Washington, West Virginia, and Wyoming.

But if you want to refer to age of consent to sex by nation? You see the age goes from 21 down to 11:
Age of Consent by Country 2022
"Rape" is basically "unlawful sex". Which is why Muhammad did not "rape" Aisha, because unlawful sex based on age was not a concept then.
It would be considered "rape" today, but that is only a problem if people claim Muhammad to be some kind of moral example for people today.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
It is important to acknowledge the difference between "Islam" (as defined by the contents of the Quran and sunnah), and "the behaviour of individual Muslims", which covers pretty much the entire spectrum of human behaviour. What is interesting is that many of them can point to some passage of the Quran or sunnah that they claim supports their position, whatever that might be.
That is by no means limited to Islam. Christians can easily do this with the Bible. And when it comes to Talmud and Torah? Oh my.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
"Rape" is basically "unlawful sex". Which is why Muhammad did not "rape" Aisha, because unlawful sex based on age was not a concept then.
It would be considered "rape" today, but that is only a problem if people claim Muhammad to be some kind of moral example for people today.

Just because something is morally unacceptable today doesn't mean that it therefore can't be part of Islam. Look at keeping slaves, using female captives for sex, and torturing people to death. We can't judge life in 7th century Arabia by our 21st century, western morality (unless people claim that 7th century Arab morality should apply today, of course).

The majority of the world uses Arabic numerals so I don't know why the '1' in 16 (age of marriage) and 19 (age of consumation) was omitted.

Islam is against slavery and before Islam women weren't allowed to own property,etc.

My question (s) are why Muslims have done, and still do, so many bad things when their religion has the same Prophets as Judaism and Christianity. Why do they have to be so different ?
 

PearlSeeker

Well-Known Member
People of all faiths, and none, are regularly involved in violent acts. The issue is with how they attempt to justify those acts.
People are generally inclined to tribalism. If it's not religion it's something else. However there are cultural differences.

I have seen several public insults of Christianity (in the name of artistic freedom) and not one throat was cut by any Christian.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
@Link
@Godobeyer

I am not a Muslim so I would like to ask you why some Muslim men marry children and why some Muslims keep slaves.

What happened to the Polytheists of Saudi Arabia ?
 
Top