Shermana
Heretic
I envision Elijah returning the same way Jesus described, as John the Baptist who already returned. It's amazing how few Christians accept that Jesus directly said that John the Baptist was Elijah's soul.
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The Credentials of Christ as the Promised Seed
- Thread starter javajo
- Start date
I envision Elijah returning the same way Jesus described, as John the Baptist who already returned. It's amazing how few Christians accept that Jesus directly said that John the Baptist was Elijah's soul.
Granted but my point has been that Jesus has reinterpreted the OT so that he was fullfilling prophecies from it even if they weren't there to begin with. Earlier in the thread I gave the example of Jesus saying the son of man would be in the earth three days cause Johah was in the whale three days as if that story was a phrophecy for the messiah being dead three days. Christians are twisting these OT sayings because the character that is Jesus did it. Fallingblood has argued that those sayings weren't in the original and they would have thought he was crazy if he had said that and that Paul wouldn't have followed such a person. Maybe the gospels aren't authentic and I agree they thought he was a a heretic but it is what Christians go by and certainly not what Paul was going by. IMO Paul was a better Jew than Jesus so take it as you will.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
We don't share that opinion. As terrible as Jesus was, I think Paul was worse.
I'm not great at explaining why, so I'm sorry that I'm not able to elaborate on that... just putting it out there.
javajo
Well-Known Member
When Jesus came the first time he was rejected by his own people. I believe he will come again as he promised many times and fulfill the rest of the prophecies about him. Here are some verses of how he was rejected the first time:
He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face, He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Isaiah 53:3)
"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 8:14)
Therefore thus says the LORD God, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed." (Isaiah 28:16)
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone. (Psalm 118:22)
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. (John 1:11)
But they cried out all together, saying, "Away with this man, and release for us Barabbas!" (Luke 23:18)
He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the very corner stone. (Acts 4:11)
For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed." This precious value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, "The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone," and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. (1 Peter 2:6-8)
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (Isaiah 53:1)
But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him; that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (John 12:37-38)
He was despised and forsaken of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and like one from whom men hide their face, He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Isaiah 53:3)
"Then He shall become a sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 8:14)
Therefore thus says the LORD God, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed." (Isaiah 28:16)
The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief corner stone. (Psalm 118:22)
He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. (John 1:11)
But they cried out all together, saying, "Away with this man, and release for us Barabbas!" (Luke 23:18)
He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the very corner stone. (Acts 4:11)
For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed." This precious value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, "The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone," and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. (1 Peter 2:6-8)
Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (Isaiah 53:1)
But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him; that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" (John 12:37-38)
Shermana
Heretic
Do you go by the "New perspective on Paul"? Do you believe Paul didn't preach Lawlessness and his words got distorted by Lawless and "foolish" men exactly as Peter said?
javajo
Well-Known Member
Its a little off topic, I believe we are to follow an even higher law of love that goes beyond what the original Law required. Paul said we should not sin in Romans 6 for one place:
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Shermana
Heretic
And what is sin? 1 John 3. "Lawlessness".
If the "Higher Law of love" does not involve the whole of the Torah with the temporary exception of Temple sacrifice, then it's far from being a "Higher Law", more like "trash".
javajo
Well-Known Member
I believe in keeping God's Laws, but probably not the whole of the Torah, as I am a gentile myself. The question about gentiles came up in Acts 15:
1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
Again in Acts 21 it says:
As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Shermana
Heretic
So are you saying that they meant Gentiles need to only follow those 4 Laws? There's a whole lot of major ones missing from that list. Why do you suppose you aren't allowed to eat blood? Where are you commanded to not smack your mom in the face? You even showed earlier how crimes like Occultism were still banned in Acts (though it doesn't forbid it directly), where is that on the list of 4? Are gentiles allowed to practice witchcraft but not Jews?
(PS There is no actual law to circumcise yourself, only your offspring, that is where the C-party was mistaken).
Also, the issue of the historicity of the Council of Jerusalem has been questioned......
(PS There is no actual law to circumcise yourself, only your offspring, that is where the C-party was mistaken).
Also, the issue of the historicity of the Council of Jerusalem has been questioned......
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smidjit
Member
The Jews never saw the symbolic meaning of these texts. Had they seen it they would be able to know the present seasons.
I don't think he preached lawlessness. I think the confusion comes from Pauls struggle between the law being dead and the flesh still having hold over the spirit. If one were truly reborn of spirit it seemed he believed you wouldn't sin anymore which is how the law would be dead because so would the sins of the flesh be dead.
javajo
Well-Known Member
I believe a Christian should love God and love others and in doing so they will keep the Law quite nicely. I believe the Bible, including Acts is God's Word. I just don't get hung up on the Law. As the Bible states in Galatians 2:16:
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Shermana
Heretic
Well, if you don't get 'hung up on the Law", then you're ignoring many key verses and passages like 1 John 3. Galatians 3:12 is very explicit. By the Law you shall SURVIVE (as it quotes). (The meaning of "Live" in this case)
Shermana
Heretic
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That's basically my belief, that a truly led person will obey the Law, that is the point of the Sacrifice, to act as a "push" back to the Law, and those who don't disobey it are thus not under its curse. Nonetheless, it is "faith" which leads to push to receive "Grace" (which actually means "Favor") to be forgiven for what sins we've committed and to give us the means to repent and pay off the punishment we owe through good works.
However, I am still undecided as to what exactly Paul meant. He could have been exactly as these antinomians claim he meant to be. Though they often ignore the key verses like Galatians 3:12.
javajo
Well-Known Member
I've placed the matter of my salvation in the hands of Christ.
James Humphreys
Member
Those are beautiful verses from Micah, as are the verses from Isaiah 11. However, I think that unfortunately everyone may not know. As one example, Malachi 4:5 speaks of the return of Elijah, but consider it coupled together with verse 6:"See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction."
To me it looks as if when Elijah comes there are two possibilities: one where "he will turn the hearts of the parents to their children" and the other "or else", when something terrible will happen if he is not able to do that. If Elijah, and subsequently the Messiah, were immediately recognized by all, it doesn't seem there would be an "or else". What do you think?
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Elijah is not the Messiah.
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
"He" is not the Messiah. "He" is not an individual person. It's obvious that you don't know what Isaiah 53 is really about.
Again, "He" is not the messiah. This is not a messianic prophecy.
Footnote to Isaiah 8:14
God will be a fortress of protection for the loyalists in Jerusalem, and a stumbling block for the rebels.
It's about the problems between the northern and southern kingdom.
This has nothing to do with rejecting anything. The last sentence more accurately reads "Let the believer not expect it soon." i.e. this will not happen in the immediate future (in relation to when these words were spoken/written)
David was that stone. David was rejected by his own father and brothers. When the prophet Samuel announced that one of Jesse's sons was to be anointed king, not one of them even thought of summoning David, who was with the sheep (see I Samuel 16:4-13)
I'm sure if I spent enough time and energy, I could write a story picking out little snipits of scripture and claim that my character is the foretold Messiah.
I know someone else who has. His name is Moshe. This is his story.
My name is Moshe and I am a Chassidic Jew who has, from my youth, learned the words of our Holy Prophets, and has been puzzled by their meaning. Then, on the day before Yom Kippur, I contemplated the solemnity of the day and was made aware of the amazing meaning of G-d's words. I recognized the fulfillment of 42 Messianic prophecies of the Tenach, and they changed my life forever.
- Early in the morning I went to get my rooster to fulfill the ancient custom. There in the light I looked into his eyes and saw fulfilled the words, 'I am the rooster who has seen affliction.' (Lam. 3:1)
- I took him and swung him around my head as the verse says, 'And he circled his head.' (Lam 3:5)
- I moved my hands as I swirled him, as it says, 'Only against me did he turn his hand.' (Lam 3:3)
- With this he leaped from my hand and started to run. As it says, 'They have run away without seeing good.' (Job 9:25)
- I cried a short pray to HaShem as it says, 'My words I say out of the bitterness of my soul.' (Job 10:1)
- He ran from me, fulfilling the verse, 'To me they showed their back and not their face.' (Jer. 32:33)
- I borrowed a cane from a man near me so as to catch him with the rounded edge, as the verse says, 'And Moshe took the stick.' (Ex. 4:20,
- (Num 20:8 -- same)
- I tried to catch him with the hook, but only the blows of the cane hit his back as it says, 'Afflicted by the rod of his anger.' (Lam. 3:1)
- It also says, 'I struck you with the blows of an enemy.' (Jer. 30:12)
- He turned to me and I got him right on the cheek fulfilling the verse, 'I have offered my cheek to the one who strikes me.' (Lam. 3:30)
- He ran from me into a dark corner and I followed after him, as the verse says, 'He has led me and driven me into the darkness and not light.' (Lam. 3:2)
- I had him there in the corner as it says; 'All her pursuers overtook her in the small place.' (Lam. 1:3)
- He stood there silent, as he had been to this time in fulfillment of the words of the prophet, 'He was persecuted and afflicted, be he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
- In that corner there was just nowhere for him to hide from me as the verse says, 'Can a person hide in a concealed place, and I should not see him?' (Jer. 23:25)
- He was now trapped as the verse says, 'He has walled me in so I cannot escape.' (Lam. 3:7)
- In his eyes I could see him praying silently to HaShem, 'My G-d my G-d why have you forsaken me?' (Psalm 22:1)
- Clearly it was fulfilled for him, 'The mighty ones of Bashan encircle me.' (Psalm 22:13)
- I grabbed him and he started to call out to HaShem. As the verse says, 'My G-d, I call to you by day and you do not answer and by night and there is no respite.' (Psalm 22:3)
- But there was no answer as it says, 'Though I would scream out and plead he shut out my prayer.' (Lam. 3:8)
- It was clearly the end. I grabbed him and took my place in the line waiting to give my rooster to the shochet (ritual slaughterer.) He was silent, 'Like a sheep being led to the slaughter or a ewe to her sharers he did not open his mouth.' (Is. 53:7)
- The shochet took him by the neck as it says; 'He grasped me by the neck.' (Job 16:12)
- With that he screamed out, 'Be not far from me because distress is near and there is none to help me.' (Psalm 22:12)
- He also said, 'Save my soul from the sword.' (Psalm 22:21)
- He slaughtered him fulfilling 'He was removed from the living land.' (Is. 53:8)
- He let the blood fall on the floor, as it says, 'I am poured out like water.' (Psalm 22:15)
- I took the dead chicken and gazed at it as the prophet says, 'They have looked upon me whom they have pierced.' (Zech 12:10)
- I took it to be made kosher. We separated it into pieces snapping it's bones as the verses say, 'All my bones became disjointed.' (Psalm 22:15)
- Also 'He has broken my bones.' (Lam 3:4)
- Then I took him home to cook. My wife removed the skin as it says, 'He has worn away my flesh and skin.' (Lam. 3:4)
- She placed him in a pot with water, as it says, 'For the waters have reached unto my soul.' (Psalm 69:2)
- She added many spices as it says, 'And she gave ...many spices.' (1 Kings 10:10)
- She covered up the pot so it could cook as it says; 'He has placed me in darkness.' (Lam 3:6)
- The smell of it filled the room as it says, 'That the spices may flow out.' (Song 4:16)
- After that it was served on the table and we gazed upon it as the verse says, 'I count my bones and they gaze and look upon me.' (Psalm 22:18)
- He was divided among the members of my family, as it says, 'Therefore I will divide him among the many.' (Is. 53:12)
- We rejoiced and sang as we ate him, as it says, 'I have become a thing of laughter for my people, they sing all day long.' (Lam. 3:14)
- Also, 'In him our hearts were joyful.' (Psalm 33:21)
- 39/40/41. After which we were full and praised G-d as it says, 'You shall eat and be satisfied and praise HaShem your G-d.' (Deut. 6:11,
- (Same for Deut 8:10)
- (Same for Deut 11:15).
- We truly saw the goodness of G-d as it says, 'You should taste and see that HaShem is good.' (Psalm 34:9)
DandyAndy
Active Member
I don't think that being reborn of the spirit means one wouldn't sin anymore. Paul seemed to imply that he himself still sinned and I think Paul was certainly reborn of the spirit.
I think the struggle he speaks of is the struggle against the natural urges of the flesh, which are sinful, and the urges of the reborn spirit to be righteous. You have two opposing viewpoints within the same being - the classic spirit vs. flesh. Righteousness is not fully possible or natural for the flesh because it is corrupted by sin and death, which the Law makes plain to see. So he finds himself in this constant struggle because his reborn spirit (which by the blood of Christ is blameless before GOD) yearns for righteousness but it is held back by the sinful flesh.
So the only way to be fully rid of the problem of sin is twofold - you must be covered by the blood of Christ AND you must physically die.
Just my two cents. I'll try to chime in if I feel able, I've been reading a lot of the back posts and this may be a little over my head.
Jesus identified John the Baptist as fulfilling this verse having come in the spirit and power of Elijah to prepare the people for the coming of the Messiah "Jesus"
The religious leaders rejected Jesus as did most of the Jewish people.
"OR Else" The Romans destroyed the city and temple in 70AD. The Jewish people
were expelled from Jerusalem I believe in 137AD and were without a home land until
1948.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled.