The Contribution of "JW's" to RT

[Horrorble]

But plenty of Christians would give me a Christian interpretation, and say Jesus is here, here and here, they even see Jesus in the Adam and Eve story, because they consistently try and link the NT back to the Jewish texts, a Jew would tell me what something meant before the NT came along.

 

[Desert Snake]

But plenty of Christians would give me a Christian interpretation, and say Jesus is here, here and here, they even see Jesus in the Adam and Eve story, because they consistently try and link the NT back to the Jewish texts, a Jew would tell me what something meant before the NT came along.

Great. And both could be equally wrong or right.

 

[Shibolet]

Flankerl and Shibolet, this is an open and shut case of believe which side suits your religious beliefs.

The Hebrews Scriptures suit the Jewish side, since they were written by Jews. How much logical can that be?

You have been led to believe one side of the story and I, the other. Whose side is correct? Time will tell.

The correct side is demonstrated by the test in Isaiah 8:20: "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't teach according to this method, it is because there is no truth in them." Do you teach according to the Law and the Prophets?

The impasse will never be bridged and Christ will either come as he promised in his own time and in his own way or he will not. I will be waiting for him for as long as it takes.

No surprise; faith is always the last to go. It is easier to have faith than to struggle to know. (Hosea 4:6)

True Christians will be found in a peaceful state when Christ comes again.

What is a true Christian?

We cannot find any common ground.

I know. That is possible only by "joining the club." (Isa. 56:1-8)

I hold no animosity towards Jewish people any more than I do for any other form of worship that is not supported by God's word.

Do you have anything to add about Judaism not being supported by God's Word?

God's people come out of all nations, blessing themselves by means of Abraham's seed, just as God promised.

Abraham's seed is Israel, the Jewish People anyway.

 

[JayJayDee]

Abraham's seed is Israel, the Jewish People anyway.

Genesis 3:15..."And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The "seed" that God promised there in Eden was Jesus Christ.
The serpent's seed was going to be at enmity with the seed of the woman and the serpent was going to inflict a 'heel' wound on this one, who would ultimately inflict a fatal head wound on the serpent.

It was established later that Abraham would be rewarded with the privilege of producing the promised seed through his family line, which happened to be Israel. The Jews were meticulous record keepers, but when all the genealogical records were destroyed at Jerusalem's destruction in 70 C.E, no Jew could prove that he was of the correct lineage to claim to be the Messiah.

Jesus had all the credentials.

It is interesting that Jesus said of the Pharisees "you are from your father the devil", (John 8:44) identifying them as part of the seed of the serpent. These are the ones who opposed the Christ and allowed themselves to be led down a wrong path of murderous hatred towards their Messiah; they had demanded his execution. They delivered a seeming 'heel wound' that only temporarily disabled him. The Father raised him and accepted his sacrifice on behalf of mankind.

You might like to look at your own scriptures and ask yourself why God would want to 'replace' a people whose conduct so offended him that on some occasions he wanted to 'exterminate' them. (Exodus 32:7-10; Josh 24:20; Ezek 20:13)

John the Baptist's words are hard to deny..."When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “you offspring of vipers, who has intimated to you to flee from the coming wrath? So then produce fruit that befits repentance; and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." (John 3:7-10)

Who did the Jewish people consider John to be?
Jesus asked the Chief Priests and older men....
"The baptism by John, from what source was it? From heaven or from men?” But they began to reason among themselves, saying: “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why, then, did you not believe him?’ If, though, we say, ‘From men,’ we have the crowd to fear, for they all hold John as a prophet.” (Matt 21:25, 26)

Can you deny that John was the one prophesied to do a work similar to Elijah? (2 Kings 1:8; Matt 3:4; Mark 1:6) I guess you can.....

 

[Shibolet]

Genesis 3:15..."And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The woman in Gen. 3:15, represents Israel and the serpent the Gentiles. Likewise in Essene Literaature, the woman represents the children of light while the serpent the children of darkness.

The "seed" that God promised there in Eden was Jesus Christ.

The seed that God promised to Abraham would come from Isaac and Jacob aka Israel. (Gen. 15:13)

The serpent's seed was going to be at enmity with the seed of the woman and the serpent was going to inflict a 'heel' wound on this one, who would ultimately inflict a fatal head wound on the serpent.

This can be understood only in the light of Jeremiah 46:28. "Of the other nations, the Lord will eventually make an end of them, but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve."

It was established later that Abraham would be rewarded with the privilege of producing the promised seed through his family line, which happened to be Israel.

You got it; thank you.

The Jews were meticulous record keepers, but when all the genealogical records were destroyed at Jerusalem's destruction in 70 C.E, no Jew could prove that he was of the correct lineage to claim to be the Messiah.

Everything was fixed by Ezra at the return of the Jews from Babylon.

Jesus had all the credentials.

Really! Was he a biological son of Joseph? This was the one from the Tribe of Judah. If Jesus was not his son, Jesus was not from the Tribe of Judah. If you don't fix that one, Jesus was the Messiah.

It is interesting that Jesus said of the Pharisees "you are from your father the devil", (John 8:44) identifying them as part of the seed of the serpent.

Whom was he talking to, the Jews who had believed in him? (John 8:31) How could Jesus offend the Jews who had believed in him that way? Paradox!

These are the ones who opposed the Christ and allowed themselves to be led down a wrong path of murderous hatred towards their Messiah; they had demanded his execution.

Murderous hatred towards the Messiah is what the Jews have suffered at the hands of Christianity throughout History by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust.

They delivered a seeming 'heel wound' that only temporarily disabled him. The Father raised him and accepted his sacrifice on behalf of mankind.

Jesus was crucified on political charges. Hence his verdict on the top of his cross: INRI. To have died for the sins of another, it would be against the Scripture that says one cannot die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30)

[quoteYou might like to look at your own scriptures and ask yourself why God would want to 'replace' a people whose conduct so offended him that on some occasions he wanted to 'exterminate' them. (Exodus 32:7-10; Josh 24:20; Ezek 20:13)

The Lord would NEVER exterminate His People. The punishment that we get from God for our offenses is like the chastisement of the jealous lover, longing to bring back the beloved to the fresh and pure joy of their first love.

John the Baptist's words are hard to deny..."When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “you offspring of vipers, who has intimated to you to flee from the coming wrath? So then produce fruit that befits repentance; and do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘As a father we have Abraham.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. Already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire." (John 3:7-10)

This kind of language towards the Jewish authorities was never in the mouth of John or or Jesus for that matter. It rather identifies with Paul who had a vindictive grudge against the Pharisees. John and Jesus were both of the line of the Pharisees.

Who did the Jewish people consider John to be? Jesus asked the Chief Priests and older men...."The baptism by John, from what source was it? From heaven or from men?” But they began to reason among themselves, saying: “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will say to us, ‘Why, then, did you not believe him?’ If, though, we say, ‘From men,’ we have the crowd to fear, for they all hold John as a prophet.” (Matt 21:25, 26)

John was a religious Jew as well as Jesus. That's all. The rest of the above doesn't even sound Jewish.

Can you deny that John was the one prophesied to do a work similar to Elijah? (2 Kings 1:8; Matt 3:4; Mark 1:6) I guess you can.....

Yes, the one who came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare a people from the return Everlasting Righteousness was Ezra. Compare his book with the last prophetic book of Malachi.

 

[JayJayDee]

Really! Was he a biological son of Joseph? This was the one from the Tribe of Judah. If Jesus was not his son, Jesus was not from the Tribe of Judah. If you don't fix that one, Jesus was the Messiah.

"Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,..."(Luke 3:23)

Jesus was accepted as the "son of Yoseph". His mother Mary was also of David's family line.

"Ya‘akov was the father of Yosef the husband of Miryam,
from whom was born the Yeshua who was called the Messiah." (Matt 1:16)

He was born in Bethlehem to a young Jewish maiden, and when he presented himself for baptism at the age of 30, it was at a time when the Jewish people were expecting their Messiah to reveal himself. John was the forerunner doing Elijah's work and with his spirit. (Matt 17:10) None of this could be orchestrated by man. Both men were born through miraculous conceptions and appeared just at the right time with all the right credentials. Was this just a co-incidence?

Were Jesus' miracles just party tricks...clever illusions? There were many eye witnesses to them. Even the Pharisees were going to put Lazarus to death after Jesus resurrected him because they knew the people were persuaded by the miracles. (John 11:45-53)

When do Jewish people stop and say, maybe we got it wrong and Jesus was the promised one after all? Look at the record of the faithfulness of your own people and tell me why there can be no doubt? How can you trust the word of those who have a vested interest in your believing that Messiah never showed up?

Why are you not still offering sacrifices for your sins according to the law? Where is your temple and priesthood?

Where do you find, in the word of God that He changed the whole arrangement?

Everything was fixed by Ezra at the return of the Jews from Babylon.

Since Messiah had not yet appeared (according to the Jews) when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E. anyone presenting themselves after that time, claiming to be the Messiah could not prove it. The records were destroyed in the Roman siege and attack on Jerusalem.

Jesus had all the qualifications and put in an appearance almost 2,000 years ago? What are the Jewish people expecting their still awaited Messiah to do and to be?

How will he be different to Jesus?

The Lord would NEVER exterminate His People. The punishment that we get from God for our offenses is like the chastisement of the jealous lover, longing to bring back the beloved to the fresh and pure joy of their first love.

Did you read the scriptures I cited?

Ex 32:9,10..."Adonai continued speaking to Moshe: “I have been watching these people; and you can see how stiffnecked they are. Now leave me alone, so that my anger can blaze against them, and I can put an end to them! I will make a great nation out of you instead.”

Proving that Israel could not rest on their laurels, Joshua said, "If you abandon Adonai and serve foreign gods, he will turn, doing you harm and destroying you after he has done you good.”

“‘But the house of Isra’el rebelled against me in the desert. They did not live by my laws; and they rejected my rulings, which, if a person does, he will have life through them; moreover, they greatly profaned my shabbats. Then I said I would pour out my fury on them in the desert, in order to destroy them." (Ezek 20:13 )

The terms of God's covenant with his people were clear...."Moshe went up to God, and Adonai called to him from the mountain: “Here is what you are to say to the household of Ya‘akov, to tell the people of Isra’el: ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine; and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el.” (Ex 19:3-6)

That little word with so much riding on it.....IF.

Israel failed time after time. It is documented in your own scriptures. God never broke his end of the bargain, but once he had fulfilled his promise to produce the Messiah, God abandoned his wayward people and chose a new nation. One that would produce the right fruits.

"Yeshua said to them, “Haven’t you ever read in the Tanakh,‘The very rock which the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone!
This has come from Adonai,
and in our eyes it is amazing’?

Therefore, I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to the kind of people that will produce its fruit!” (Matt 21:42-44 all quotes from The Complete Jewish Bible)

Israel was given back to the world, she is a secular nation even today in every way, they are not known as a spiritual nation.The Jewish people are as religiously divided as Christendom,(though perhaps with fewer sects.)

John and Jesus were both of the line of the Pharisees.

The Pharisees were the most influential Jewish sect at the time, but Jesus did not have a good thing to say about them.

“If you make a tree good, its fruit will be good; and if you make a tree bad, its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. You snakes! How can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what overflows from the heart. The good person brings forth good things from his store of good, and the evil person brings forth evil things from his store of evil. Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken; for by your own words you will be acquitted, and by your own words you will be condemned.” (Matt 12:33-37)

Jesus pronounced "woe" for them, calling them "offspring of vipers" (Matt 23:13-36)

Does that sound like he approved of their actions and activities?

John was a religious Jew as well as Jesus. That's all. The rest of the above doesn't even sound Jewish.

It doesn't sound "Jewish"? That's a convincing argument?

Yes, the one who came in the spirit of Elijah to prepare a people from the return Everlasting Righteousness was Ezra. Compare his book with the last prophetic book of Malachi.

"About 450 years after Elijah’s time, Malachi prophesied that Elijah the prophet would appear “before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah.” (Mal 4:5, 6) The Jews of Jesus’ day were in expectation of Elijah’s coming to fulfill this prophecy. (Matt 17:10) Some thought that Jesus was Elijah. (Matt 16:14) John the Baptizer, who wore a hair garment and a leather girdle around his loins as did Elijah, denied that he actually was Elijah in person. (2Kings 1:8; Matt 3:4; John 1:21) The angel had not told John’s father Zechariah that John would be Elijah, but that he would have “Elijah’s spirit and power . . . to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.” (Luke 1:17) Jesus indicated that John did that work but was not recognized by the Jews. (Matt 17:11-13) After John’s death a visionary appearance of Elijah along with Moses occurred at Jesus’ transfiguration, indicating that there was something yet to take place as represented by the work that Elijah had done.—Mark 9:1-8." (Excerpt, Insight Volumes WTBTS)

If you wish to stick with your Jewish ideas about Jesus, you are free to do so. But it flies in the face of all the evidence of Biblical history, and the nature of the Jewish people as the Hebrew scriptures describe them.

We will always be at an impasse.