• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs the Westboro Baptist Church

Which of these two religions is the most "benign"?

  • Westboro Baptist Church

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

    Votes: 20 83.3%

  • Total voters
    24

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
And her very next statement was, "Marriage vows in the temple are polygamy vows." 99.99% of all marriage vows in the temple are not polygamy vows, and she said nothing about Nelson's vows in particular. She made a blanket statement that is quite simply false.
They're vows that comsent to an arrangement that the people taking them believe could result in polygamy. "Polygamy vows" seems a fair enough shorthand for that.

BTW: if a widower's second "Celestial marriage" is just a normal remarriage, why can't women do it?

I'm sorry, but I'm finding this whole debate a big waste of time. For the life of me, that you are so invested in this topic at all baffles me. You want to have the last word? Be my guest.
I don't really care about LDS marriage practices; what I do care about is seeing someone being treated unfairly and uncharitably, as you were doing to @idea . It's especially hypocritical in this case, seeing as you're interpreting @idea's posts in the worst possible way while complaining that your beliefs are being misrepresented.

And if you didn't want me to participate in this thread, maybe you shouldn't have started it by calling me out.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
They're vows that comsent to an arrangement that the people taking them believe could result in polygamy. "Polygamy vows" seems a fair enough shorthand for that.

BTW: if a widower's second "Celestial marriage" is just a normal remarriage, why can't women do it?


I don't really care about LDS marriage practices; what I do care about is seeing someone being treated unfairly and uncharitably, as you were doing to @idea . It's especially hypocritical in this case, seeing as you're interpreting @idea's posts in the worst possible way while complaining that your beliefs are being misrepresented.

And if you didn't want me to participate in this thread, maybe you shouldn't have started it by calling me out.
I am absolutely not treating idea unfairly, nor is @Jane.Doe nor is @Prestor John . I've been treated "unfairly and uncharitable" over the years on this forum so many times I've lost track. I have yet to see you come to my defense!

And it is our beliefs that are being misrepresented. Three of us who know what we're talking about have said that idea's posts are not on the up and up. You side with her, essentially telling the three of us that we're either clueless or dishonest. I wouldn't be at all surprised if @Watchmen, who left the church a few years back, didn't agree with us. You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. I can't keep you from participating in this thread and we both know that. I only "called you out" due to what I believe to have been a blatantly malicious insult on another thread. I didn't want to derail that thread but I wanted to know if other people would agree with your comparison of the LDS Church to the WB Church. It appears that for the most part, they don't. At any rate, I guess I'm just a slow learner when it comes to trying to have a dialogue with you. You've got to be right, even when you're wrong. I've no more to say to you on this thread.
 
Last edited:

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I am absolutely not treating idea unfairly, nor is @Jane.Doe nor is @Prestor John . I've been treated "unfairly and uncharitable" over the years on this forum so many times I've lost track. I have yet to see you come to my defense!
Then maybe pay better attention. Here's the most recent time:

What is the Mormon response to Rev.Ch.#22 Vs. 18-22: "I warn everone who hears the words etc"

And it is our beliefs that are being misrepresented. Three of us who know what we're talking about have said that idea's posts are not on the up and up. You side with her, essentially telling the three of us that we're either clueless or dishonest.
I think you're strawmanning her: choosing to ignore everything but the least reasonable interpretation of what she's saying and respond to that.

It's definitely poor form; I'm not sure if I'd call it "dishonest" because I'm not sure if it's deliberate.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if @Watchmen, who left the church a few years back, didn't agree with us. You're the one who doesn't know what he's talking about. I can't keep you from participating in this thread and we both know that. I only "called you out" due to what I believe to have been a blatantly malicious insult on another thread.
There's nothing malicious in pointing out the truth that actions matter more than words.

I didn't want to derail that thread but I wanted to know if other people would agree with your comparison of the LDS Church to the WB Church. It appears that for the most part, they don't.
Since my comparison applies just as much to many other denominations as it does to the LDS Church - if not moreso - it makes sense. It's often difficult for a person who likes to think of themselves as gay-friendly to come to terms with what their church does.

At any rate, I guess I'm just a slow learner when it comes to trying to have a dialogue with you. You've got to be right, even when you're wrong. I've no more to say to you on this thread.
Except that I'm not wrong, and all you've offered so far in response is offense.

Fair enough: you don't like it when someone points out the the LDS Church has done more - much more - to harm LGBTQ people than the WBC, whether total impact or per capita. It doesn't change the fact that it's true.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
It's accurate. If it takes you aback... good.

Which do you think has more impact: words or actions?

As awful as the WBC is, all they do are words. The LDS Church, OTOH, has taken - and AFAIK continues to take - concrete steps to take away rights from LGBTQ people. The harm done by the WBC pales in comparison to the harm done by the LDS Church.

The LDS Church certainly isn't the worst offender in this regard - IMO, the Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Convention are much worse - but I'm still going to rank any organization that actively campaigns against against the rights of LGBTQ people as more harmful than any organization that condemns LGBTQ people without doing anything to actually affect their rights.
What rights has the LDS Church tried to take away from LGBT people?
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
You see the misrepresentation (intentional is judging) of LDS teachings. Someone else might personally and honestly interpret LDS teachings in ways that you do not like.
No. I meant exactly what I said.

They are intentionally taking quotes and beliefs out of context through omission and adding details that are not there.

Would you like to go through the examples they shared?
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
What's the correct context for, say, item #1?
The Law of Adoption was often practiced in the early days of the Church to seal families to prominent Church leaders.

When faithful members of the LDS Church are married in the Temple their union is described as both a marriage and a sealing - because the marriage covenant between the couple is sealed for time and throughout all eternity.

Not only married couples are sealed to one another in the LDS Church.

For example, any child born to a married/sealed couple will automatically be considered sealed to their parents to enjoy the parent/child relationship for time and throughout all eternity. This is called being "born under the covenant".

A faithful couple who becomes sealed after already having children can go to the Temple with their children and have the family sealed for time and throughout all eternity. A couple can also have adopted children sealed to them in this way.

I mentioned this to point out that not all sealings are marriages. Most sealings are had or performed for the purpose of unifying families through the sealing power by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

Everyone who is sealed together receives certain promises which mainly include the right to continue to enjoy the relationship with the sealed person that was had on Earth after death.

A sealed father to his son will always have that relationship. A sealed husband to wife and etc.

However, it is important to note that one family cannot be unified with another without a Temple sealing for either time and eternity or just eternity and this can only be had between a man and a woman.

A man cannot be sealed to another man, unless it is parent to child. Same goes for women. Only mothers to daughters.

A mother of one family cannot be sealed to the mother of another family.

If two families wish to be unified throughout all eternity - to enjoy the same relationship together that they had on Earth - a man in one family must be sealed to a woman in the other.

These types of "adoption" sealings don't really take place anymore because the membership of the Church has grown and we now have Temples all over the world, so no one sees the need.

But in the early Church with members being driven out of the U.S. and their Temples being destroyed or taken - they saw a need.

Sorry for that long explanation, but it will come in handy as I new address your question.

Item #1 neglects to mention that it was Helen's father, Heber C. Kimball, who instigated the coupling,

"Just previous to my father’s starting upon his last mission but one, to the Eastern States, he taught me the principle [p. 1] of Celestial marriage, & having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet, Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth."

The Apostle Heber C. Kimball wanted his family to be forever associated with the Prophet. He wanted that same relationship they enjoyed to perpetuate beyond the grave. Not all sealings were made for the purpose of procreation.

Needless to say, but this was a hard decision to make, but it was Helen's to make after both her parent's gave consent. Now we get to the promise that Joseph made to her,

"I will pass over the temptations which I had during the twenty four hours after my father introduced to me this principle & asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph, who came next morning & with my parents I heard him teach & explain the principle of [p. 1] Celestial marrage-after which he said to me, “If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation and exaltation & that of your father’s household & all of your kindred."

First off, the promises of "eternal salvation and exaltation" are offered to everyone who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. As long as those who were sealed remain faithful to their covenants, this promise is ensured.

This was not a specific promise made to a specific person. This teaching and promise is had in Doctrine and Covenants 132, and all faithful members are free to enter into this covenant and receive these promises.

You can read it here: Doctrine and Covenants 132

The Prophet was simply teaching a young woman a core belief of the LDS Church that she had not yet been made aware.

The only difference here is that this sealing was not of a single man to a single woman, but through the Law of Adoption, it was Heber C. Kimball's family unifying with the Prophet's family and therefore both families would be seen as one and both would receive the same blessings intended for the other.

When people don't stop to consider how the LDS Church regards Temple sealings and think that a sealing is nothing other than a "marriage" as the world knows it (i.e. "God-sanctioned sex"), then people are going to make a bunch of false assumptions.

There is nothing in this story that implies that the Prophet's relationship with Helen was sexual in any way. In fact, all the correspondence between the two that we do know of also included her family.

Two years after the Prophet's death she remarried and had like eleven kids. She never had a child by Joseph Smith.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
What rights has the LDS Church tried to take away from LGBT people?
Most heinously, the right to exist at all.

Most recently, the right to marriage.

It's interesting to note that the LDS Church's campaign against LGBTQ rights has harmed many non-LGBTQ people as well. The LDS Church opposed the Equal Rights Amendment - and with it, protections for the rights of women and visible minorities - on the grounds that it might also protect rights for LGBTQ people. It also once campaigned to have all after-school extracurricular activities banned at Salt Lake City public schools in order to block a Gay-Straight Alliance from forming.

All of this is much more than what the WBC has done.

Consider just the shameful history of BYU - owned and run by the LDS Church - of "conversion" therapy using electroshock treatments. Even before we consider your church's attempts to lobby for anti-gay legislation, or the several cases where church members were inspired by LDS teachings to murder gay people, when we just consider direct, physical harm carried out by church employees as part of their official duties, your church has a lot to answer for.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The Law of Adoption was often practiced in the early days of the Church to seal families to prominent Church leaders.

When faithful members of the LDS Church are married in the Temple their union is described as both a marriage and a sealing - because the marriage covenant between the couple is sealed for time and throughout all eternity.

Not only married couples are sealed to one another in the LDS Church.
Helen Mar Kimball's autobiography describes her relationship with Joseph Smith as a marriage. She uses the term "marriage" herself.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
What rights has the LDS Church tried to take away from LGBT people?
Are you sure you don't know better than to ask that question? The Church tried to make it impossible for them to marry, at least in California. I know you supported their efforts and you know I didn't. That's something we'll probably never agree on. But whether they were right to do what they did or not, you can't just pretend it didn't happen. Being able to marry the person you love is a biggie!
 
Last edited:

idea

Question Everything
And her very next statement was, "Marriage vows in the temple are polygamy vows." 99.99% of all marriage vows in the temple are not polygamy vows, and she said nothing about Nelson's vows in particular. She made a blanket statement that is quite simply false. I'm sorry, but I'm finding this whole debate a big waste of time. For the life of me, that you are so invested in this topic at all baffles me. You want to have the last word? Be my guest.

Marriage vows are polygamy vows - the new and everlasting covenant is a polygamy covenant.

Brother ______, do you take Sister ______ by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?

D&C 132 is referring to polygamy - the New and everlasting covenant is one of polygamy - A person might as well say, “I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.” One is just as consistent as the other. Or a person might as well say, “I believe in Mormonism, and in the revelations given through Joseph Smith, but I am not a polygamist, and do not believe in polygamy,” What an absurdity! If one portion of the doctrines of the Church is true, the whole of them are true. If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints, is not true, I would not give a fig for all your other revelations that came through Joseph Smith the Prophet; I would renounce the whole of them, because it is utterly impossible, according to the revelations that are contained in these books, to believe a part of them to be divine—from God—and part of them to be from the devil; that is foolishness in the extreme; it is an absurdity that exists because of the ignorance of some people. I have been astonished at it. I did hope there was more intelligence among the Latter-day Saints, and a greater understanding of principle than to suppose that any one can be a member of this Church in good standing, and yet reject polygamy. The Lord has said, that those who reject this principle reject their salvation, they shall be damned, saith the Lord; those to whom I reveal this law and they do not receive it, shall be damned (Orson Pratt, October 7, 1874, Journal of Discourses 17:224)

Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

see: LDS Mormon Temple History Polygamy

Compared to .... say...
Traditional Wedding Vows | Minted
Officiant: Will you, ________, have ________ to be your husband/wife? Will you love him/her, comfort and keep him/her, and forsaking all others remain true to him/her as long as you both shall live?" ← that is NOT part of the LDS vows.

Mormons do not vow to love one another, do not vow to be faithful to one another - only to be faithful to the church, they do not vow to take care of one another in sickness or in health - none of that.

President Nelsen waited all of 5 minutes after his first wife died to start dating, and get remarried. Nelsen is a polygamist, and his children are currently under investigation for Mormon Church President’s Daughter And Son-In-Law Sued For Hosting Alleged Child Sexual Abuse In ‘Touching Parties’

... in the mouth of 2 or three witnesses? There are 6 witness - and they have hospital records showing the damage that was done to their bodies ... 6 people all saying the same thing.

Judas was an apostle too I guess... the lesson of Judas? Don't follow apostles. The lesson of Jonah? Don't follow prophets - follow God.
 
Last edited:

idea

Question Everything
Idea's experience was clearly traumatic for her. It was apparently so traumatic that she can't seem to move on with her life. She says how happy she is with her life now. Do you sense that she's happy? I certainly don't. She is lashing out against a Church she has labeled as "pure evil." Revenge seems to have become an obsession with her. I genuinely believe that she would benefit from counseling. There is nothing mean about that. If she had said she had debilitating headaches, I'd suggest she seek medical help.

I actually am really happy Katz - I'm not on here as much because I'm now lead faculty - teaching overload at an amazing college - working with an at-risk population, turning lives around with education. I am also working with a food bank and humanitarian organizations and am in charge of a group supplying food to those in need in our area. I do volunteer and outreach work at local public schools, am working on several really amazing grants - have connected with an amazing ex-mo community who has been incredibly supportive - my cup is full and runneth over. I still have a few friends from church as well, and still attend every now and then - as do several others who do not believe any more.

There are a few things in the LDS church that are very evil - there are other things that are wonderful, but I don't think anyone is able to be a "cafeteria" Mormon.... Sorry if I hit a nerve - I appreciate that you are able to see and acknowledge some of the areas that are troublesome... more than just troublesome... within the church.... Hopefully your faith is in God and Jesus - rather than faith in a church? ...

I guess everyone can either worship a church, or they can worship God....

Those middle-men? they aren't so good...

God makes all churches good enough to bring everyone the first few steps, and evil enough to force everyone to find their own individual personal testimony by the end... that is how I see it now.

Can you read something for me? It is not meant to be hurtful - I did not write this, but it sure captured what I have been feeling...

https://karlijo.wixsite.com/beautyi...9tAsIOvVYrenjFtPFPV7YJrkhuKXJeO4JAGjeHesFCNoA

I'm through the dark night of the soul... have now been given the opportunity to serve - not a church calling, a life calling - I'm up at midnight, will get a few hours of rest, before I get up and start work again - and I love it. I love the people I work with - from all walks of life, all ages, all backgrounds, all beliefs - I love all of them. It is a new world, a beautiful world - I feel free.
 
Last edited:

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Marriage vows are polygamy vows - the new and everlasting covenant is a polygamy covenant.

Brother ______, do you take Sister ______ by the right hand and receive her unto yourself to be your lawful and wedded wife for time and all eternity, with a covenant and promise that you will observe and keep all the laws, rites, and ordinances pertaining to this Holy Order of Matrimony in the New and Everlasting Covenant, and this you do in the presence of God, angels, and these witnesses of your own free will and choice?
@idea, you're full of crap (to put it nicely). The New and Everlasting Covenant refers to a marriage solemnized in the temple -- any marriage. D&C 132 is NOT referring to polygamy. Period. Temple marriage/sealing is for time and all eternity. My husband and I have been sealed in such a marriage. It's not going to take another woman to make our marriage eternal. :rolleyes: President Nelson's marriage to his first wife was for eternity; he didn't need to remarry after her death to make that happen. You're lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, and you're just going to keep lying till there are no more lies left, aren't you. I'm done adding fuel to your fire.
Nelsen is a polygamist, and his children are currently under investigation for Mormon Church President’s Daughter And Son-In-Law Sued For Hosting Alleged Child Sexual Abuse In ‘Touching Parties’

... in the mouth of 2 or three witnesses? There are 6 witness - and they have hospital records showing the damage that was done to their bodies ... 6 people all saying the same thing.
Says "The Daily Caller," a source that Media Bias/Fact Check describes as "strongly right biased based on story selection that almost always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to numerous failed fact checks. The Daily Caller is a source that needs to be fact checked on a per article basis." It gives The Daily Caller almost exactly the same rating as it gives "The National Enquirer." Are you impressed? Knowing you, probably.
 
Last edited:

idea

Question Everything
@idea, you're full of crap (to put it nicely). The New and Everlasting Covenant refers to a marriage solemnized in the temple -- any marriage. D&C 132 is NOT referring to polygamy. Period. Temple marriage/sealing is for time and all eternity. My husband and I have been sealed in such a marriage. It's not going to take another woman to make our marriage eternal. :rolleyes: President Nelson's marriage to his first wife was for eternity; he didn't need to remarry after her death to make that happen. You're lying, lying, lying, lying, lying, and you're just going to keep lying till there are no more lies left, aren't you. I'm done adding fuel to your fire.
Says "The Daily Caller," a source that Media Bias/Fact Check describes as "strongly right biased based on story selection that almost always favors the right and Mixed for factual reporting due to numerous failed fact checks. The Daily Caller is a source that needs to be fact checked on a per article basis." It gives The Daily Caller almost exactly the same rating as it gives "The National Enquirer." Are you impressed? Knowing you, probably.

I am not lying about polygamy:
http://www.letterformywife.com/letter/


Here you go - President Nelsen sex abuse case.

Decades-old Bountiful case alleges church connection to abuse allegations

Church Responds to Media Inquiries Into Lawsuit Filing

https://jamesvernonweekspa-my.sharepoint.com/personal/brady_jvwlaw_net/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?id=%2Fpersonal%2Fbrady_jvwlaw_net%2FDocuments%2F1-18-cv-00121-JNP.pdf&parent=%2Fpersonal%2Fbrady_jvwlaw_net%2FDocuments&slrid=15e3949e-e0cd-6000-4747-843810015dd9
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Are you sure you don't know better than to ask that question? The Church tried to make it impossible for them to marry, at least in California. I know you supported their efforts and you know I didn't. That's something we'll probably never agree on. But whether they were right to do what they did or not, you can't just pretend it didn't happen. Being able to marry the person you love is a biggie!
The Brethren had to do all within their power to teach the truth about marriage and to keep Man from distorting this sacred institution.

You believe that people had the right to change the definition of marriage?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
The Brethren had to do all within their power to teach the truth about marriage and to keep Man from distorting this sacred institution.

You believe that people had the right to change the definition of marriage?
Sorry, Prestor John, I just don't see it that way. No human being's voice can drown out the voice of my own conscience..
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The Brethren had to do all within their power to teach the truth about marriage and to keep Man from distorting this sacred institution.

You believe that people had the right to change the definition of marriage?
Your church can decide who it will and won't marry in its own churches and temples. You even have the right to "tut-tut" at people whose marriages you don't approve of and to nod in agreement when another member of your congregation says that God doesn't consider them "real" marriages.

What you don't have the right to do is to use the law to impose your religion's beliefs on people who haven't chosen to follow your religion.

OTOH, if you really do think that we should be using the law to force others to live as we believe, let me know, because I have some ideas about things I would impose on you if that was the case.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
As one of my all-time favorite RP posters once observed, "Debating some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good at playing chess you are, the pigeon is just going to knock down all the pieces, poop on the board, and walk around all triumphant." Very applicable here. No further comments from me, idea, except to suggest that you wipe your feet off when you're done.
 
Last edited:

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Most heinously, the right to exist at all.

Most recently, the right to marriage.

It's interesting to note that the LDS Church's campaign against LGBTQ rights has harmed many non-LGBTQ people as well. The LDS Church opposed the Equal Rights Amendment - and with it, protections for the rights of women and visible minorities - on the grounds that it might also protect rights for LGBTQ people. It also once campaigned to have all after-school extracurricular activities banned at Salt Lake City public schools in order to block a Gay-Straight Alliance from forming.

All of this is much more than what the WBC has done.

Consider just the shameful history of BYU - owned and run by the LDS Church - of "conversion" therapy using electroshock treatments. Even before we consider your church's attempts to lobby for anti-gay legislation, or the several cases where church members were inspired by LDS teachings to murder gay people, when we just consider direct, physical harm carried out by church employees as part of their official duties, your church has a lot to answer for.
I agree with the Church's decision to oppose the ERA. The 14th Amendment already protected the rights of U.S. citizens.

I don't know anything about the SLC public school campaign you mentioned. Could you share a source?

I know of "aversion therapy" performed by BYU and lots of other universities back in the day. Professionals still use aversion shock treatment today.

Can you explain what this "conversion" therapy was? Provide another source?

The LDS Church teaches against murder and violence. If someone felt "inspired" to do those things, they were doing so in opposition to the teachings of the Church.

What "official duties" were carried out by employees to harm anyone?
Helen Mar Kimball's autobiography describes her relationship with Joseph Smith as a marriage. She uses the term "marriage" herself.
As I said, the phrase used was "Celestial Marriage" and I never said that their sealing was not a marriage.

It simply was not one for time, for the purpose of procreation - but rather for eternity, sealing the families together.

You know, he was also sealed to women much older than himself for the same purpose. Why don't people ever question that?
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Sorry, Prestor John, I just don't see it that way. No human being's voice can drown out the voice of my own conscience..
Yet your conscience should not be able to drown out any U.S. citizen's right to vote.

The leaders of the Church, as servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, should do all in their power to teach His way, even if it's in the voting booth.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Your church can decide who it will and won't marry in its own churches and temples. You even have the right to "tut-tut" at people whose marriages you don't approve of and to nod in agreement when another member of your congregation says that God doesn't consider them "real" marriages.

What you don't have the right to do is to use the law to impose your religion's beliefs on people who haven't chosen to follow your religion.

OTOH, if you really do think that we should be using the law to force others to live as we believe, let me know, because I have some ideas about things I would impose on you if that was the case.
If a proposition appears on a ballot any U.S. citizen has the right to vote on it according to their own conscience.

Anyone can get a proposition qualified for the ballot if the initiative gets the required number of signatures.

Are you arguing that no religious person(s) should be able to use the same system of government as everyone else?
 
Top