The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints vs the Westboro Baptist Church

[savagewind]

The true believers, @savagewind.

Yes. Thank you. But will hate help change their minds, do you think?

 

[Katzpur]

I don't understand why people call seeing something as it really is in their eyes, "evil". @Jane.Doe calls what @idea saw and experienced, "evil" and you, @Saint Frankenstein, seem to give some credence to that opinion to be calling that which @idea describes "hate". I am sorry. I call it "news". In my uneducated opinion, hate is evil.

Idea has every right to share what she saw and experienced, and I don't believe any of us has the right to tell her her experiences aren't valid. What @Jane.Doe and I find to be inappropriate is her misrepresenting LDS doctrines and history. Both Jane and I have been members of the Church far longer than idea was, and we have never lied to anyone on this forum. Here's an example of what I mean: In a fairly recent post, idea said that "It is absolutely a fact that Joseph Smith was a pedophile." I replied, "It is absolutely a not fact that Joseph Smith was a pedophile. So let's look at the facts and not just start running off at the mouth here. Joseph married Helen Mar Kimball just a few months short of her 15th birthday. He had not been pursuing her. It wasn't even his idea to marry her. Her father, Heber C. Kimball, requested that she be sealed to Joseph. There is no evidence that the marriage was ever consummated. In point of fact, she continued to live at home with her parents after the sealing. Less than two years later, she married a young man she'd fallen in love with. They had twelve children together." Idea knows she's not telling the truth, and that particular claim is just one example. It's not "news"; it's lies.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yes. Thank you. But will hate help change their minds, do you think?

It's not my responsibility to change their minds. They only change if they want to.

 

[savagewind]

It's not my responsibility to change their minds. They only change if they want to.

True, but I think that it is possible that hate outside might tend to help a person decide to stay inside.

 

[Katzpur]

So - Mormons do not believe polygamy is required for celestial exaltation? You are going to contradict your own scriptures?

Our scriptures do not state that polygamy is required for exaltation, idea. If that were the case, we wouldn't believe that the vast majority of our Church's leadership even have the potential to be exalted. For millions of Latter-day Saints over the past 120 years or so, that would mean that exaltation was completely beyond the realm of possibility. Does that even sound logical to you?

Comparing several women I know...

I know one - whose husband is in jail for molesting kids - she refuses to work, cannot take care of herself, did not protect her kids because "women do not hold the role of being a protector", she did not divorce her pedophile husband because she would rather see her children abused than break her Mormon covenants. ...

What a stupid woman.

vs.

Me. I work. I protect my kids. I don't rely on help or healing from "the priesthood". I'm not afraid to face problems, read the real history of the church, see the actual "fruits" of the current church.

I am doing so much better now - and it is because I have left the church. I have stopped being a victim molly mormon... I thought that humble crap would be a wonderful thing, the fruits did not pan out - by their fruits ye shall know them? I currently have much better fruits in my life than I did as a Mormon. I have a job. I have dignity and self-worth. I don't need any man to tell me if I am worthy or not - or quiz me behind closed doors about my life - what BS. I'm done with it.

You're not "done with it." If you were "done with it," you'd be able to move on. If your life is so much better now than it was, then just be happy about that and stop drinking the poison.

 

[savagewind]

Idea has every right to share what she saw and experienced, and I don't believe any of us has the right to tell her her experiences aren't valid. What @Jane.Doe and I find to be inappropriate is her misrepresenting LDS doctrines and history. Both Jane and I have been members of the Church far longer than idea was, and we have never lied to anyone on this forum. Here's an example of what I mean: In a fairly recent post, idea said that "It is absolutely not a fact that Joseph Smith was a pedophile. So let's look at the facts and not just start running off at the mouth here. Joseph married Helen Mar Kimball just a few months short of her 15th birthday. He had not been pursuing her. It wasn't even his idea to marry her. Her father, Heber C. Kimball, requested that she be sealed to Joseph. There is no evidence that the marriage was ever consummated. In point of fact, she continued to live at home with her parents after the sealing. Less than two years later, she married a young man she'd fallen in love with. They had twelve children together." Idea knows she's not telling the truth, and that particular claim is just one example. It's not "news"; it's lies.

Let's not forget reason. Issues facing the Mormon Church: Joseph Smith Was a Sexual Predator

I work with students in a High School. I often give presentations to the students about the dangers they face from online sexual predators....... prepared this list to demonstrate that Joseph Smith's pattern for luring his polygamous wives has all the same markings of the worst of today's sexual predators:
Threats, shame, and false promises.

I didn't write it but it sure was easy to fine.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes - 1 out of 4 females has been sexually assaulted.

I'd just love to see your source for this bit of BS.

Being empowered, strong, self-reliant, dependent on no one and nothing - that is what feels healthy to me.

Yeah, if that's all you were, I'd call it healthy, too. Unfortunately, you are clearly NOT healthy at all. You need help.

 

[Katzpur]

Let's not forget reason. Issues facing the Mormon Church: Joseph Smith Was a Sexual Predator
I didn't write it but it sure was easy to fine.

Of course it was easy to find. That doesn't make it true. I find it really interesting that you'd buy into this nonsense. You can choose to believe idea or me, but you can't believe both of us.You and I have known each other for several years now. Based on this post (i.e. the one I'm quoting), I'd have to conclude that you think I'm either (1) dishonest or (2) clueless. I just wonder which one it is.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

True, but I think that it is possible that hate outside might tend to help a person decide to stay inside.

We'll just agree to disagree here.

 

[savagewind]

Of course it was easy to find. That doesn't make it true. I find it really interesting that you'd buy into this nonsense. You can choose to believe idea or me, but you can't believe both of us.You and I have known each other for several years now. Based on this post (i.e. the one I'm quoting), I'd have to conclude that you think I'm either (1) dishonest or (2) clueless. I just wonder which one it is.

Did you read it?

 

[Katzpur]

Did you read it?

Yes. Do you think I'd have just dismissed it without reading it? And would you mind telling me whether you think I'm just misinformed or deceptive in what I post about Mormonism. I'd really like to know.

By the way, just in case you'd like a second opinion, you'll find enough articles on this website to keep you busy reading for a very, very long time. Click on the search icon and then type in "Joseph Smith polygamy."

 

[savagewind]

Based on this post (i.e. the one I'm quoting), I'd have to conclude that you think I'm either (1) dishonest or (2) clueless. I just wonder which one it is.

I don't think you are either. You are loyal to your church and the article was about excerpts from real events and @idea is not loyal like you are. She might be gullible which certainly is not bad, hateful, or evil.

 

[savagewind]

It is all just about a difference of opinion, imo

 

[savagewind]

This article; Issues facing the Mormon Church: Joseph Smith Was a Sexual Predator does not prove Smith was a pedophile, but it seems to me to be giving ample evidence that he was of the same mindset as we know pedophiles are.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't think you are either. You are loyal to your church and the article was about excerpts from real events and @idea is not loyal like you are. She might be gullible which certainly not bad, hateful, or evil.

Yes, it was about "excerpts from real events." It was about statements which, taken out of context, are misleading. That's what they're intended to be. Pick one, any one, and we can discuss it in greater detail. I'm not calling her "bad or evil," but trust me, I know hateful when I see it. And as far as my loyalty goes, I don't think it goes quite as far as you may believe. I have been extremely outspoken about parts of my Church's history that bother me (e.g. discrimination against people of African descent). You'll find Mormons on this forum who wouldn't think of doing anything but be supportive of everything in the Church's past. I'm not one of them and I never have been. It sounds very much to me as if you're telling me I'm putting loyalty above honesty. That's not who I am.

 

[savagewind]

Yes, it was about "excerpts from real events." It was about statements which, taken out of context, are misleading. That's what they're supposed to be. Pick one, any one, and we can discuss it in greater detail. I'm not calling her "bad or evil," but trust me, I know hateful when I see it. And as far as my loyalty goes, I don't think it goes quite as far as you may believe. I have been extremely outspoken about parts of my Church's history that bother me (e.g. discrimination against people of African descent). You'll find Mormons on this forum who wouldn't think of doing anything but be supportive of everything in the Church's past. I'm not one of them and I never have been.

I just wish you and that other one would think seriously about calling someone else, "in need of help". First of all, we are all. And secondly, it seems to me that saying so it like calling someone retarded or the n word.

 

[Katzpur]

I just wish you and that other one would think seriously about calling someone else, "in need of help". First of all, we are all. And secondly, it seems to me that saying so it like calling someone retarded or the n word.

Idea's experience was clearly traumatic for her. It was apparently so traumatic that she can't seem to move on with her life. She says how happy she is with her life now. Do you sense that she's happy? I certainly don't. She is lashing out against a Church she has labeled as "pure evil." Revenge seems to have become an obsession with her. I genuinely believe that she would benefit from counseling. There is nothing mean about that. If she had said she had debilitating headaches, I'd suggest she seek medical help.

 

[savagewind]

Idea's experience was clearly traumatic for her. It was apparently so traumatic that she can't seem to move on with her life. She says how happy she is with her life now. Do you sense that she's happy? I certainly don't. She is lashing out against a Church she has labeled as "pure evil." Revenge seems to have become an obsession with her. I genuinely believe that she would benefit from counseling. There is nothing mean about that. If she had said she had debilitating headaches, I'd suggest she seek medical help.

Or, she might be worried about warning some other soul.

 

[Katzpur]

Or, she might be worried about warning some other soul.

I don't think you're naive enough to believe that. If she had just shared her experience, I might possibly be persuaded that her motives were more "noble." She's just told too many lies (they haven't all been in this particular thread) for that to be the case. Anyway, even if she were trying to "warn" other people, what good would it do? There are some genuinely bad people in every single solitary religion that has ever existed. She's apparently still "seeking" one she thinks will be everything she once thought Mormonism was. In her early posts (from a few years back), she was looking at everything in the Church through rose-colored glasses. Now it's the exact opposite. Nothing is as black and white as she wants to believe it is. Neither the Church nor its leaders are perfect, nor are they "pure evil."

 

[savagewind]

Neither the Church nor its leaders are perfect, nor is it "pure evil."

Of course not! I haven't been following her so you might be right, but what is happening to her happened to me the same way and both situations seem to me to be just a matter of opinion...the same knowledge but viewed in a different light.