The British is more gentleman than the US

[greatcalgarian]

http://wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/kill-d12.shtml

The state killings of Rigoberto Alpizar and Jean Charles de Menezes came four-and-a-half months apart, and an ocean separated the scenes of their violent deaths. Yet the similarities between their fates is undeniable. Both were innocent men brutally executed by undercover agents—in one case American, in the other British—prosecuting the so-called “global war on terror.”

Both were Latin American immigrants, gunned down on the grounds that they supposedly posed a terrorist threat. The reaction in their home countries—Brazil in the case of de Menezes, Costa Rica in that of Alpizar—was one of anger and disbelief.

.......

Why did the marshals service spokesman make up the story about him shouting about a bomb as he ran “up and down the aisle”? Undoubtedly, for the same reason that the London police described Jean Charles de Menezes wearing a heavy coat and jumping over a ticket barrier in flight, when in fact he was wearing no such clothing and had paid his fare, not even knowing that he was being pursued.

In both cases, it quickly became apparent that the police had taken the life of an innocent man, and alibis were needed both to exonerate the individual officers and uphold the infallibility of the security forces.

........

There are, however, differences worth noting in the reactions to the two shootings in London and Washington. Last July, in Britain, police officials, the foreign minister and others quickly declared their “regrets” over the killing. Prime Minister Tony Blair announced how “desperately sorry” he was about the shooting and declared his “deep sympathy” for the de Menezes family’s loss. He quickly added, of course, that none of this should interfere with unconditional support for the police “in doing the job they have to do in order to protect people in this country.” In other words, such killings were inevitable and more were to be expected.

In Washington, there was little expression of even feigned sorrow or sympathy. Bush has said nothing about the killing of Alpizar, and his spokesman merely praised the air marshals for their “extensive training,” declaring, “We are appreciative of all that our air marshals do day in and day out in terms of trying to protect the American people.”

.......

While the de Menezes killing was treated for some time by the British media as a significant controversy, the American press and broadcast news have dropped the Alpizar story after just three days, his murder eclipsed by an airplane overshooting the runway and accidentally killing a six-year-old child in Chicago.

.....

Hundreds of people are shot dead by police in the US every year. These killings are so commonplace that no government agency even bothers to keep accurate figures on how many die annually in fatal encounters with the police. According to some estimates, a third or more of the victims are mentally ill.

In Britain, police killings have claimed approximately 30 victims in the last dozen years—although, with the de Menezes killing and the Blair government’s “shoot to kill” policy, the British police may soon be catching up with their colleagues across the Atlantic.

..........

There is no evidence whatsoever that such deranged police state measures—Miami authorities assured the public that the SWAT team, like the marshals, was following procedures—have any deterrent effect on terrorism.

.......

In the final analysis, these policies are aimed at benefiting a small financial oligarchy whose interests are so inimical to those of the vast majority of working people that it and its political representatives have abandoned even the pretense of a commitment to democratic rights. Rather, this ruling layer—both in Britain and the US—has increasingly seen constitutional rights and civil liberties as intolerable impediments to the pursuit of policies—the destruction of living standards and social services, tax cuts for the rich, predatory wars—that are opposed by the great majority of the people.

Jean Charles de Menezes and Rigoberto Alpizar were both victims of this process, and they will not be the last.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Click twice, already posted.

 

[BUDDY]

I think that the difference is that the episode in England happened months ago, while the one in Miami just occered and is an on-going investigation. Maybe if you wait a littel bit before posting this type of garbage, you will get the answers you so desperately seek, rather than make such ignorant nationally racist statements as the title of this thread.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I think that the difference is that the episode in England happened months ago, while the one in Miami just occered and is an on-going investigation. Maybe if you wait a littel bit before posting this type of garbage, you will get the answers you so desperately seek, rather than make such ignorant nationally racist statements as the title of this thread.

Did you read the other thread? This current thread did not contain anything, as I click twice, and posted the same thing twice, so I have edited and waiting for the administrator to remove this redundant post

While the de Menezes killing was treated for some time by the British media as a significant controversy, the American press and broadcast news have dropped the Alpizar story after just three days, his murder eclipsed by an airplane overshooting the runway and accidentally killing a six-year-old child in Chicago.

http://wsws.org/articles/2005/dec2005/kill-d12.shtml

 

[Darkdale]

Honestly, who in the world cares? Americans are not "noble", for the most part. We have a very arrogant consumer culture. We have no real national identity other than being the world's most hatred and loved nation, which is confusing in and of itself. I'd say our power is out of balance with our culture though. But, we'll see how things go in the future. America could have a cultural awakening at any time.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Honestly, who in the world cares? Americans are not "noble", for the most part. We have a very arrogant consumer culture. We have no real national identity other than being the world's most hatred and loved nation, which is confusing in and of itself. I'd say our power is out of balance with our culture though. But, we'll see how things go in the future. America could have a cultural awakening at any time.

Every concern citizen of US should be worry about this trend. The fall of history great empire is always preceded by this arrogant trend. Other than that, the attitude of ignoring human right (murdering of innocent people in the name of fighting terrorism) is really not that honorable act.

 

[michel]

........

There are, however, differences worth noting in the reactions to the two shootings in London and Washington. Last July, in Britain, police officials, the foreign minister and others quickly declared their “regrets” over the killing. Prime Minister Tony Blair announced how “desperately sorry” he was about the shooting and declared his “deep sympathy” for the de Menezes family’s loss. He quickly added, of course, that none of this should interfere with unconditional support for the police “in doing the job they have to do in order to protect people in this country.” In other words, such killings were inevitable and more were to be expected.

What didn't come out of that story, unfortunately, is the fact that for a couple of days, the police tried to cover up the fact that it was a mistake. Early reports told that the man had a heavy jacket on, had a bag over his shoulder, and vaulted the bars to get to the station platform........In the event, those three points were just pure fiction.

As soon as the policce realized that the real story was bound to leak, they came out with the truth..........

.......

While the de Menezes killing was treated for some time by the British media as a significant controversy, the American press and broadcast news have dropped the Alpizar story after just three days, his murder eclipsed by an airplane overshooting the runway and accidentally killing a six-year-old child in Chicago.

It is still causing controversy; the british police are determined to have a police investigation (as opposed to an external one ordered by the courts); the prime minister insists that this is solely because it would a) be far cheaper to have an 'in house' investigation (which is factually true)and b)that an external enquiry would take months to come to any conclusion (again, true). The trouble is, one needs to know the truth here...........Was the policeman who shot de Menezes trigger happy ?/Had he had enough experience and training? (I think that is the more likely reason)
.....

In Britain, police killings have claimed approximately 30 victims in the last dozen years—although, with the de Menezes killing and the Blair government’s “shoot to kill” policy, the British police may soon be catching up with their colleagues across the Atlantic.

I sincerely hope not, and I think it unlikely. Recently there was on of your guys (I think a Texan Policeman) over here, on secondment (perhaps to sample the British Police methods ?). After a week or so, he demanded to be armed, declaring that he was far too vulnerable without one; he also made the point that all British policemen should be armed immediately.

I think he went back to Texas soon after (for a spot of 'unpaid leave')
..........

Jean Charles de Menezes and Rigoberto Alpizar were both victims of this process, and they will not be the last.

Unfortunately, you might be right there.

 

[BUDDY]

Both cases are sad, certainly. So, here is an idea. When a police officer tells you to do something, do it, don't act like an idiot cause in todays heightened security climate it is only going to make things very dangerous for you. I think as citizens, both American adn British owe it to ourselves and our fellow citizens to do exactly what we are told to do by law enforcement.

 

[Fluffy]

When a police officer tells you to do something, do it, don't act like an idiot cause in todays heightened security climate it is only going to make things very dangerous for you.

A good piece of advice but it would not be useful to either of these men. I get what you are saying but I don't think that it would be effective in stopping this kind of thing.

 

[YmirGF]

This topic makes me angry.

So, my dear hand wringers, what do we do? Do we have our police stand pleading with people before applying appropriate force and risk getting themselves killed? Obviously training is the key. Frankly there will most likely always be some green kid who gets a little excited. I do not see how it can be avoided.

We are all cozy, ensconsced in our favorite chairs. We are not standing there with some fancy rifle lining up the cross hairs on a suspect that is not responding. We should review the mistakes, but it is pretty low to pass judgment, without knowing the facts.

If I do not respond to a police officer commanding me to stop, I fully expect to get taken down one way or the other. I might be able to sue, if I lived, but I could never blame them personally. I did not play the game, and they reacted accordingly. This is drop dead simple, no pun intended.

 

[greatcalgarian]

A good piece of advice but it would not be useful to either of these men. I get what you are saying but I don't think that it would be effective in stopping this kind of thing.

It is the culture and policy that need changes. In the advance developed democratic countries, citizens have been educated that POLICE is there to serve you to protect you, and POLICE is friendly, helpful. In the current situation, especially in the US, POLICE have been given the training to shoot to kill when in their mind there is a little doubt of the question of 'terrorism'. Whereas the general public (especially the British, less so the Americans) are still thinking that POLICE will not shoot without first 'reading their rights'

This advice is known to those countries where US has branded as 'dictatorial', 'undemocratic', 'communist', etc. So if we need that advice, the West is then going backward in the sense of democracy. A very sad thing.

 

[Darkdale]

Every concern citizen of US should be worry about this trend. The fall of history great empire is always preceded by this arrogant trend. Other than that, the attitude of ignoring human right (murdering of innocent people in the name of fighting terrorism) is really not that honorable act.

We aren't murdering innocent people in the name of anything. We aren't murdering anyone. This is war. Comparatively, this has been a relatively calm war. I don't think I'd get my panties in a twist over it.

 

[greatcalgarian]

We aren't murdering innocent people in the name of anything. We aren't murdering anyone. This is war. Comparatively, this has been a relatively calm war. I don't think I'd get my panties in a twist over it.

Yes, Darkdale, that is the excuse given for enforcing this type of behavior and action. Some people like it and agree with it. Many other may want to have a different approach, instead of sacrificing human dignity and respect and living 1984-like type of situation.