The Big Bang and Secularism

[MatCauthorn]

If "god" is defined simply as "something that brought the universe into existence" I think even most self-described atheists would accept its existence.

I would be pretty surprised if someone who is truly an atheist (and not just someone who disagrees with the conceptions of God promoted in the major world religions) would say they believed in a God, even such a vague description of one. I would think that most atheists believe that the universe is eternal and that the appearance of life is completely coincidental, requiring no outside intervention at all. (Also, I think many atheists have a very negative gut reaction to the very mention of the word "God," but that's a discussion for another thread. )

This needs to be moved. Anybody for where it should go - it doesn't belong here now

Agreed. I originally intended this as a discussion of secular views on the creation of the universe, but maybe it would be better off in "Comparative Religion," since it's started to bring in ideas of the nature of God (though no specific religion's God).

-- Mat

 

[Scott1]

Scott-- And, as a plus, it also makes predictions which are falsifiable.

Not sure how to take your point here, Spinks..... are you saying that my beliefs are not falsifiable, or were you in agreement with me?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Not sure how to take your point here, Spinks..... are you saying that my beliefs are not falsifiable, or were you in agreement with me?

I'm saying your beliefs are not falsifiable. It is, in my opinion, impossible to falsify any claim that invokes the supernatural.

 

[Scott1]

I'm saying your beliefs are not falsifiable. It is, in my opinion, impossible to falsify any claim that invokes the supernatural.

In my opinion, my beliefs are quite falsifiable.

When the machine gets created that can show me string theory and explain how energy and matter can be created out of nothing, I'll make a modification to it......

..... and with my pan-dimensional gargle blaster/time machine, will go back in time and verify all claims of time, space, and the Resurection of the man from Galilee.

As long as we are being theoretical, that's my theory.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

..... and with my pan-dimensional gargle blaster/time machine, will go back in time and verify all claims of time, space, and the Resurection of the man from Galilee.

And if you went back in time, and the man from Galilee was not Resurrected, would that falsify your beliefs? Of course not....it would still be possible that God is just blinding you to his Resurrection to test your faith. That's the great thing about beliefs which invoke the supernatural....easy to verify, impossible to falsify.

 

[Scott1]

And if you went back in time, and the man from Galilee was not Resurrected, would that falsify your beliefs? Of course not....it would still be possible that God is just blinding you to his Resurrection to test your faith. That's the great thing about beliefs which invoke the supernatural....easy to verify, impossible to falsify.

If Jesus was not Resurrected, then my faith dies with him. Period.

I can't make it any more clear than that.

Again.... quite possible to falsify my theology.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I see this thread has been moved to the debate forum.

If Jesus was not Resurrected, then my faith dies with him. Period.

I believe you. But would going back in time and seeing Jesus die without being Resurrected prove that Jesus was not Resurrected? Not if one invokes the supernatural. As I said, God could simply make it appear to you as though Jesus were not Resurrected to test your faith. Observation cannot falsify beliefs that rest on the supernatural...though I believe you when you say you would give up your faith if confronted with such powerful physical evidence.

 

[Mike182]

hey guys

a little excited about this thread - im still a student at college in england and i did my RS coursework on this subject - i wont post my entire thing on here because most people wont want to read it - but if anyone is interested then PM me and ill send it to you

the title is
"to what extent are biblical ideas about creation compatible with modern theories about evolution? how have scholars attempted to deal with this? "

it is verymuch just looking at christianity and science so it does not encorpurate other religions - but i think it makes for an interesting read if i may say so myself :162:


reading backwards through the thread my post seems a little bit off topic - but its about secular and scientific views of creation so i thought id put it in

blessings
xXx

 

[Scott1]

Sorry I missed your reply Spinks....

I believe you. But would going back in time and seeing Jesus die without being Resurrected prove that Jesus was not Resurrected?

YES.

Not if one invokes the supernatural.

The Christian faith is not based upon this... it is based upon the witness of those who saw the resurected Lord.

As I said, God could simply make it appear to you as though Jesus were not Resurrected to test your faith. Observation cannot falsify beliefs that rest on the supernatural...though I believe you when you say you would give up your faith if confronted with such powerful physical evidence.

You can dance around this as much as you like... it might apply to those Christians who trust in the Bible alone and don't view reason or history as relevant to their faith... but this is not the CATHOLIC faith. Faith and reason go hand in hand.

Peace,
Scott

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You can dance around this as much as you like... it might apply to those Christians who trust in the Bible alone and don't view reason or history as relevant to their faith... but this is not the CATHOLIC faith.

Upon further reflection, I'm going to have to concede the point to you here, Scott1 (Arrgh!). I said in post #23 that I do not think your beliefs are falsifiable, because they rest upon the supernatural. However, if a supernatural claim makes observable predictions, it most certainly is possible to falsify that claim--even if it would require a time-machine to do so. I suppose what I should have said is that no supernatural claim requires observable predictions. But I didn't, so you were right, and I was wrong.

And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling Catholics!

Again.... quite possible to falsify my theology.

(With a time machine, that is.)

 

[Scott1]

I've actually got the plans for a time machine all worked out... just waiting for one last piece of the puzzle and I'll let you know about Christ!

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Did you insert the power crystals, Napoleon?

 

[Scott1]

Did you insert the power crystals, Napoleon?

It's actually much easier than you might think.

I was playing poker with Homer Simpson, Elvis, and Scooby-Doo the other day... Homer wanted me to make one of my world famous "Virgin Mary" grilled cheese sandwiches..."MMMM, Sacralicious"... when I noticed that my Stigmata was bleeding. I went above the toilet to grab a bandage and slipped and hit my head.... that's when I discovered the key to time travel.

I won't bore you with all the details, but all you need is a paper clip, a stick of chewing gum, and a George Foreman Grill...... the last part of the puzzle is the tough part. I need to insert the entire device into an atheists anal cavity for it to work.

Do you happen to have TVOR's home address?

Scott

 

[Mr Spinkles]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to Scott1 again.

:biglaugh:

 

[greatcalgarian]

I won't bore you with all the details, but all you need is a paper clip, a stick of chewing gum, and a George Foreman Grill...... the last part of the puzzle is the tough part. I need to insert the entire device into an atheists anal cavity for it to work.

Do you happen to have TVOR's home address?

Scott

I believe there are many people (in fact the whole world) waiting to see how your time machine work :biglaugh:

May be many atheists will volunteer to be a guinea pig in your great scientific invention.
I would definitely recommend you for the Nobel prize of 2005 if you managed to get it working this year.