The Bible and the Unborn

[Bree]

Where does it state that? Please, no vague verses about a specific person. And forget about Exodus 21 22. And of course one can't forget the Test of an Unfaithful Wife in Numbers where a priest does a chemical abortion. Or that a person had no monetary worth until some time after birth in the Old Testament. There appear to be far more verses that I can think of that tell us that an abortion is not sin then ones that say it is wrong.

Im not allowed to use the law of Moses as dictated by God, so i guess Exodus 21 is out.

But besides the law stating 'life for life' if a pregnant womans baby is aborted due to the actions of some squabbling men, then i think its appropriate to see how God, the creator views the unborn child in the womb.

Ps. 139:13-16: “
My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the depths of the earth.+
You [Jehovah] kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. . . . Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.”

Through the writer King David, God is telling us that he sees each of us before we are born, he knows us individually.
His law 'thou shalt not murder' applies to everyone he has created and knows individually....that is why the law exists... we are 'HIS' creation and he is the source of life and therefore we belong to him alone and no one has the right to destroy the life that he created.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Im not allowed to use the law of Moses as dictated by God, so i guess Exodus 21 is out.

But besides the law stating 'life for life' if a pregnant womans baby is aborted due to the actions of some squabbling men, then i think its appropriate to see how God, the creator views the unborn child in the womb.

Ps. 139:13-16: “
My bones were not hidden from you When I was made in secret, When I was woven in the depths of the earth.+
You [Jehovah] kept me screened off in the belly of my mother. . . . Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing.”

Through the writer King David, God is telling us that he sees each of us before we are born, he knows us individually.
His law 'thou shalt not murder' applies to everyone he has created and knows individually....that is why the law exists... we are 'HIS' creation and he is the source of life and therefore we belong to him alone and no one has the right to destroy the life that he created.

Poetic verse about an individual. Sorry, that doesn't help your case.

And Exodus 21 22 was reinterpreted after Roe v Wade. Only because people let their personal beliefs affect their work. Before then it said if the woman had a miscarriage the penalty was a fine. That is why that verse is out. Bringing up fictitious characters does not change things one iota.

 

[1213]

You are using a post Roe v Wade translation. If one finds a US translation from before then it tends to use the word "miscarriage" telling you that the incident ended her pregnancy and there were no children. My housemate's Catholic Bible, a very very antiabortion church from the 1960's uses the word "miscarriage". It was the legalization of abortion that caused many US translations to change.

That doesn't explain why Finnish 1938 translation speaks also about premature birth. And I think the context also shows the correct meaning, it is about premature birth and if the child doesn't die, then the guilty one doesn't deserve death.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The female power of life and death over the unborn; property rights, is very similar, in outcome to a new form of slave owner bill of rights. In this scenario, immature humans are considered property, secondary to the needs of the plantation owner, with women entitled with the power over life and death, like before the Emancipation Proclamation.

The comparison to slaves doesn’t work. Find me a slave poster where a fetus is bought.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

the Isrealites were surrounded by nations intent on killing them. God allowed Isreal to go to war true....but it wasnt because he was starting wars it was in order to protect his people.

They were in danger because they kept showing up and killing people, raping their little girls and taking their stuff.

 

[Bree]

They were in danger because they kept showing up and killing people, raping their little girls and taking their stuff.

thats is quite untrue.

The surrounding nations did not have good standards, some of their cities such as Ninevah was known as the 'city of bloodshed' because of their barbaric practices.

Isreal held to high standards of morality and any isrealite who failed to uphold Gods high standards were put to death.

 

[Bree]

Poetic verse about an individual. Sorry, that doesn't help your case.

And Exodus 21 22 was reinterpreted after Roe v Wade. Only because people let their personal beliefs affect their work. Before then it said if the woman had a miscarriage the penalty was a fine. That is why that verse is out. Bringing up fictitious characters does not change things one iota.

how in the world would a modern legal case between two people have any bearing on Gods laws?

I fail to see where you are going with that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

how in the world would a modern legal case between two people have any bearing on Gods laws?

I fail to see where you are going with that.

The point i s that you used a bogus translation. The translation was changed to that after Roe v Wade, Don't trust me, find an old Bible printed in the 1960's.

Antiabortion people are not exactly honest. They changed your Bible. In fact here is an unchanged translation:

"NASB 1977
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide."

Exodus 21:22 If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband demands and as the court allows.

There are some other examples that were not changed there on that page.

 

[rational experiences]

The unborn no such status.

All baby humans grow into living adult humans are self present.

The bible a book written by those living humans doesn't precede humans...a book. Nor do human ideas precede a human.

 

[Bree]

The point i s that you used a bogus translation. The translation was changed to that after Roe v Wade, Don't trust me, find an old Bible printed in the 1960's.

Antiabortion people are not exactly honest. They changed your Bible. In fact here is an unchanged translation:

"NASB 1977
“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide."

Exodus 21:22 If men who are fighting strike a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband demands and as the court allows.

There are some other examples that were not changed there on that page.

The hebrew original text is the best one to use really. In the original hebrew it is clearly stating that 'soul for soul' will be the consequences of any action that causes harm to a pregnant woman or her child.

The Hebrew word asón is used and it means “mortal accident.” So should a mortal accident occur to a pregnant woman, then soul for soul is the consequence. If there was no fatal accident, the husband of the woman could impose a fine on the men who stuck her.

So you can't get around the hebrew text's clear direction that if a fatality occured, the death penalty would be imposed. It was a very serious matter to cause injury to an unborn child.

 

[Bree]

The unborn no such status.

All baby humans grow into living adult humans are self present.

The bible a book written by those living humans doesn't precede humans...a book. Nor do human ideas precede a human.

The bible is not a book of human wisdom and ideas. Its a book that shows us Gods views on matters.

 

[paradox]

should the OT and/or NT be changed to reflect the rights of the unborn? Spirits?

There is no need, 5th God's command says "do not kill"

 

[Fool]

There is no need, 5th God's command says "do not kill"

You can't kill what doesn't have the breath of life in it.

 

[rational experiences]

The bible is not a book of human wisdom and ideas. Its a book that shows us Gods views on matters.

You have to however be a human first.

You hence can't not ..not be involved.