The Apostle Paul was the anti-christ according to the first Christians

[Apple Sugar]

Wow, talk about false teaching. There is not a single scripture that says a person can work their way to Heaven and salvation. Not one.

If that were the case Jesus wouldn't have sacrificed himself on the cross so that those who hold faith in his sacrifice and repent are saved by faith. While that faith without works is dead, there is no scripture that says one can work their way to salvation without faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[savagewind]

In the Gospel there are tens of examples that clearly make you understand that you can gain salvation only by doing good. Through works.

For example, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, clearly shows that the selfish and the money-hungry people will go to Hell.
whereas the victims will go to Heaven.

so I don't understand why Paul states that Christ's sacrifice can save the wicked through his blood. It is a meaningless and a sterile concept.

Jesus' blood is the life, the truth and the way. If you will walk it you will do good by walking it. If you don't walk it you probably will do good too but you won't be saved by Jesus Christ.

 

[Nada]

In the Gospel there are tens of examples that clearly make you understand that you can gain salvation only by doing good. Through works.

For example, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, clearly shows that the selfish and the money-hungry people will go to Hell.
whereas the victims will go to Heaven.

so I don't understand why Paul states that Christ's sacrifice can save the wicked through his blood. It is a meaningless and a sterile concept.

It is by faith.Works are indeed needed.Once one has come to understand the Word of God, and taken in an accurate knowledge of the truth,they are to then preach the good news about the Kingdom of God to all the inhabited earth, as commanded in Matthew 24:14.

Hell is the grave.Not a literal place of fire and torment.Not all people will go to Heaven.Heaven is for those who will reign with Jesus Christ.Those who are anointed with Gods holy spirit.The earth is for those others who will reside forever upon it.


Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

If everybody goes to Heaven,then who will inherit the earth? God said He made the earth "to be inhabited." He says, "he did not create it to be empty," Thats was the plan from the beginning with Adam and Eve.

 

[Estro Felino]

Jesus' blood is the life, the truth and the way. If you will walk it you will do good by walking it. If you don't walk it you probably will do good too but you won't be saved by Jesus Christ.

It sounds logically impossible to me that good and altruistic non-believers can go to Hell.
It is impossible...but I respect your vision.

 

[savagewind]

It sounds logically impossible to me that good and altruistic non-believers can go to Hell.
It is impossible...but I respect your vision.

Well I know 1. There is no punishment for dead souls to suffer and 2. some people live a living hell.

Jesus is able to make an escape from anyone's living hell.

 

[Estro Felino]

Well I know 1. There is no punishment for dead souls to suffer and 2. some people live a living hell.

Jesus is able to make an escape from anyone's living hell.

well...the afterlife is neither an award nor a punishment. So believers are not rewarded for believing.

Saint Paul said something that sounds very devilish to me: he said that we cannot brag about our own merits. Whereas we should brag about Jesus merits (by his merits he means that he died for us).
I think exactly the opposite: I think that we cannot steal Jesus' merits because they are his and not ours. But we can use our own merits to get salvation.
But we are not rewarded by God. We earn our salvation...so not even God can judge us if we earned it.

 

[savagewind]

well...the afterlife is neither an award nor a punishment. So believers are not rewarded for believing.

Saint Paul said something that sounds very devilish to me: he said that we cannot brag about our own merits. Whereas we should brag about Jesus merits (by his merits he means that he died for us).
I think exactly the opposite: I think that we cannot steal Jesus' merits because they are his and not ours. But we can use our own merits to get salvation.
But we are not rewarded by God. We earn our salvation...so not even God can judge us if we earned it.

WOW. Swimming against the tide are you? I can't believe you. :sorry1: "We can use our own merits" is what the Egyptians believed I think.

edit: I agree with you that we are "not rewarded by God".

 

[sojourner]

Paul's teachings weren't accepted by all the apostles. They weren't accepted by most of the apostles. He contradicted Jesus' teachings and he was held to account for it.

Then how did he win the day at the Council of Jerusalem?

He wasn't an apostle by right because Paul never walked with Jesus nor heard his earthly teachings in person.

He was an apostle by right, because he was sent. That's what "apostle" means -- "one who is sent."

While those who knew Jesus and their accounts are written as much as 20 years after Jesus.

Paul is the earliest writing we have. His earliest extant letter was written about 40 c.e. -- less than ten years following Jesus. The earliest gospel was written post-70 c.e. None of the gospel writers could have known or talked to Jesus.

Being constrained by a creed

the historic creeds don't constrain. They're a starting point.

People who are Pauline aren't following Christ. They're following a Pharisee.

Jesus was probably a Pharisee...

And when that light appeared to a Pharisee, a Roman citizen, on his way to kill those who followed Jesus yet again, that light fulfilled what Jesus warned against believing.
Matthew 24:23.
Do you think Jesus would forewarn about such things while in his earthly ministry and then after departing to the Father contradict himself so as to appear before a member of a den of vipers?

Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I really wish you understood Matthew. The Greek words used in the original text for chap. 28 were laos and ethne -- literally, "go and make 'us' (laos) out of 'them' (ethne). In other words, by the time Matthew was written, Paul had already accomplished that.

 

[sojourner]

Wow, talk about false teaching. There is not a single scripture that says a person can work their way to Heaven and salvation. Not one.

James.

 

[outhouse]

While I know that Paul or someone like him would be required eventually to rectify Edom (Rome) the descendant of Esau; I loathe him as he was indeed the 'anti-christ'. But that term carries too much association with the non-Jewish Xian concept of Satan. Better to call him the 'anti-jew' as his warped teachings are the basis of Yeshua being unacceptable to even be considered by my fellow Jews. Deification demanded rejection.

That's exactly how I felt about him before my education.

His so called warped teachings, were just a reflection of Hellenistic Judaism in the first century.

They were no more warped then any other Jew of the time, who all held different beliefs on how to worship the one god concept.


Johns and Jesus teachings would not have survived because they were anti Roman and anti Hellenistic Judaism. They mirrored the Aramaic Jewish Zealots in Galilee.

With his death, his Aramaic Judaism died with him. Only Hellenist in the Empire who had long wanted to divorce Judaism found importance in the mythology surrounding the martyrdom, and built scripture and teachings based on the Hellenized version of oral tradition far removed from Aramaic Jews.

 

[savagewind]

I really wish you understood Matthew. The Greek words used in the original text for chap. 28 were laos and ethne -- literally, "go and make 'us' (laos) out of 'them' (ethne). In other words, by the time Matthew was written, Paul had already accomplished that.

Please show me where.
I have:
πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε
poreuthentes oun mathēteusate
having gone; therefore; disciple
Matthew 28:19 Greek Text Analysis

What verse are you referencing?

 

[outhouse]

Jesus was probably a Pharisee...

.

Far fetched by all my study.

 

[savagewind]

Far fetched by all my study.

You didn't call him wrong! I am going to frubal you. Just pretend you care.

 

[Estro Felino]

WOW. Swimming against the tide are you? I can't believe you. :sorry1: "We can use our own merits" is what the Egyptians believed I think.

edit: I agree with you that we are "not rewarded by God".

I do not possess the absolute truth. I am Pelagian and that's what I believe.
I do respect the Augustinian interpretation of Christianity, which is essentially based upon Saint Paul's assumptions.

 

[Robert.Evans]

I'm hoping to generate a respectful dialog/debate as to whether or not Saul of Tarsus was an Apostle.
By all appearances , and by what educated scholars in the first video have said, he was not considered to be anything but the antichrist by the first Christians. And his profession that he was converted on the road to Damascus, as I mentioned and as scripture shows is accounted three different ways in the Bible, is a transparent copy of pagan conversion myths which he would have known about at the time.

Paul's teachings conflicted very often with those of Jesus. He was not accepted by all. He took the teachings of Jesus to the Gentiles when Jesus said he did not come for any but the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The elect.
Therefore, as all that is taken into account, and per the first video and the learned men there, the first Christians were Jews. And therefore today's Christians would have to be probably what are called Messianic Jews in order to be true followers of Jesus.

Whereas those who are now called Christians, when Paul's letters comprise the majority of the new testament and as they were first called Christians in Antioch, where Antiochus had presided interestingly enough, are more in keeping with Paul's teachings. And therefore would qualify to be called Paulines, as they were known to be in the early centuries after Christ.

Paul in effect transmuted the Jewish Messiah Yeshua into the universal, today's Protestant and Catholic, version of Jesus.

That's what I'm saying. I hope that assists to clarify my position.

I think you make some interesting points. But Hebrews does tell us that there is a change in the law with a new H-Priest. Therefore that would then include Paul would it not?

 

[Robert.Evans]

The first Christians considered Paul the antichrist is a false deduction from what is written. Paul was not anti Jesus Christ. He was overly zealous for him.

I agree. The bouncing tigger was funny.. haha

 

[sojourner]

Please show me where.
I have:
πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε
poreuthentes oun mathēteusate
having gone; therefore; disciple
Matthew 28:19 Greek Text Analysis

What verse are you referencing?

28:19 "Disciples" is translated from laos -- literally, "us." "Nations" is translated from ethne -- literally, "them."

 

[Estro Felino]

28:19 "Disciples" is translated from laos -- literally, "us." "Nations" is translated from ethne -- literally, "them."

laos means people.
ethne: nations

μαθητεύσατε: imperative : teach the nations.

Maybe I got what passage you are referring to. That passage in which Jesus says that we must distinguish between laos (the new Christian people, which is universal) and the Jewish nation (ethnos).

 

[savagewind]

28:19 "Disciples" is translated from laos -- literally, "us." "Nations" is translated from ethne -- literally, "them."

Thank you. Nations literally means them; I see it. I cannot find where disciples is translated from us. Do you have a link?

Also I am thinking "Make them out of us" is the truth Jesus taught but I am asking where you got the word laos that means us. Where did you get your words?

 

[sojourner]

Thank you. Nations literally means them; I see it. I cannot find where disciples is translated from us. Do you have a link?

Also I am thinking "Make them out of us" is the truth Jesus taught but I am asking where you got the word laos that means us. Where did you get your words?

See here:

Laos - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

"Definition
a people, people group, tribe, nation, all those who are of the same stock and language"

The jist is: "Go and make 'them' into 'us.'

You see, the whole thrust of Matthew is that we can no longer delineate between people. Yes, there are sheep and goats, but but we don't separate them. Yes, there are weeds and wheat, but we let them grow up together.
There is no "us/them" where the church is concerned.