The Apostle Paul was the anti-christ according to the first Christians

[sojourner]

Show me the scripture where all the Disciples that walked with Jesus approved Paul.
Peter and Paul contended against one another in Antioch by Paul's own account in Galatians 2.

Here's the funny thing about the line of reasoning that produces this thread:

Most (if not all) the people who argue that "Paul was a fake Christian," that "he took Xy in the wrong direction," that he wasn't really an apostle," are people who tend to be biblical literalists, who tend to believe that "God wrote the bible," who tend to believe that the bible is infallible. They are quick to ask for biblical proof for claims that are made.

If the bible is infallible, and is to be used to base arguments upon -- if faith is built solely upon what is written in the bible -- if God wrote (or really inspired the writing of) the bible -- then why is Paul rejected as being fake??? He's in the infallible bible, for Pete's sake! :face palm:

Are you folks really trying to argue that one part of the bible proves that another part of the bible is wrong, when the bible is, itself, infallible?!

 

[Apple Sugar]

So now he's possessed by satan? Really? Why would he write those epistles if he was possessed by satan, or further, if, as you said, was trying to humanize Jesus, why would he imply otherwise? Paul could have done a much better job at humanizing than that. Many or most who are opposed to Paul view him negatively precisely because they think he was doing the opposite, namely Deifying a human.

Paul wrote the letters referring to the sin living in him. What do you think that is? The satan is metaphor for that sin.

Paul's teachings weren't accepted by all the apostles. They weren't accepted by most of the apostles. He contradicted Jesus' teachings and he was held to account for it.

Apostle? He proclaimed himself apostle in the new testament epistles. No one else did. There are few, two I think it is, references to his apostleship and those are vague allusions to the title he donned himself. He wasn't an apostle by right because Paul never walked with Jesus nor heard his earthly teachings in person.

Paul hunted the first Christians, because they were Jews, prosecuted and presided over their execution. He was a Pharisee, a member of the den of vipers Jesus condemned.
When Jesus forewarned not to believe anyone who came after him and announced they'd met Christ, and Saul proclaims he met Christ on the road to Damascus while engaged in yet another journey to hunt, prosecute and execute those who followed Christ, hearken unto Jesus' warnings. Especially when a Pharisee fits the exact mold of what Jesus said would be a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Fear paradigms are what align most people to the majority of the new testament teachings that are attributed to Paul. They don't reckon to ask the question:

Why is it a man who never knew Jesus but proclaimed to have met something on the road, a copy of pagan myths that were extant at the time and that Paul would have known about, while Jesus said he would never show himself in that way after he returned to Heaven, and then that Pharisee avoided the true Apostles for years while teaching a contrary doctrine in the name of Christ, while admitting he was full of sin and evil to the churches he founded, be believed over Christ?

Fear of Hell if they don't believe it.

How is it it doesn't cross anyone's mind that councils that compiled a closed canon compiled letters written by a man who never knew Jesus and allowed those in majority to teach Jesus ministry? While those who knew Jesus and their accounts are written as much as 20 years after Jesus.

 

[Nada]

This passage in his Roman's epistle is what leads some to think he was possessed by the satan that was the light he met on the road. After all, in one of his letters he said that even satan can appear as an angel of light.

Romans 7:14-25


14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[b] a slave to the law of sin.

Those who would think Paul was possessed, or of satan, are mistaken.This passage is referring to the sin within him and how he is a slave to sin like everyone else.He is describing the urge within us all to sin even when we want to do what is good.It really does not say he is unspiritual.Thats a mistranslation.It really says he is fleshly,carnal.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body.24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death?

He is speaking of sin within him

 

[Desert Snake]

Paul's teachings weren't accepted by all the apostles. They weren't accepted by most of the apostles. He contradicted Jesus' teachings and he was held to account for it.

Who disagreed with him?

Fear paradigms are what align most people to the majority of the new testament teachings that are attributed to Paul. They don't reckon to ask the question:

That's great, but I'm not 'most people'. I don't control how others receive or accept Xianity.

Fear of Hell if they don't believe it.

You don't believe in Hell?

 

[Apple Sugar]

Who disagreed with him?

He disagreed with all the other disciples when he wrote his epistle to the church in Corinth in 2 Corinthians 11:4-5. Forewarning the church to discount anyone who taught something other than what he taught.
Jesus said the law continues to be applicable, Paul said it did not. Jesus taught not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, Paul taught it was OK. Jesus taught that only God is our Father. Paul wrote the Corinthians and told them that he is their spiritual father.
Who disagreed with him? You mean, starting with Jesus himself?

That's great, but I'm not 'most people'. I don't control how others receive or accept Xianity.

That's great. I never said you did nor do I understand why you'd think you need to say that.

You don't believe in Hell?

I don't believe God gave us an intellect and then asked us to revoke it because we're afraid of going to Hell for seeking out the true message of Jesus Christ.
Being constrained by a creed, holding faith in false doctrine that Jesus forewarned against, doesn't get someone to Heaven. Jesus delivered his warnings and the left the earth so that people could survive or die having been given the formula to do just that.

People who are Pauline aren't following Christ. They're following a Pharisee.

 

[Desert Snake]

He disagreed with all the other disciples when he wrote his epistle to the church in Corinth in 2 Corinthians 11:4-5. Forewarning the church to discount anyone who taught something other than what he taught.
Jesus said the law continues to be applicable, Paul said it did not. Jesus taught not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, Paul taught it was OK. Jesus taught that only God is our Father. Paul wrote the Corinthians and told them that he is their spiritual father.

The law in it's previous form was changed by Jeshua, most assuredly.

Who disagreed with him? You mean, starting with Jesus himself?

You need to provide verses at this point. You are paraphrasing, and I'm becoming increasingly skeptical of how you are coming to these conclusions.

That's great. I never said you did nor do I understand why you'd think you need to say that.

Because it is irrelevant to our discussion.

 

[Nada]

Paul did persecute Christians.Yes,he did.While on his way to Damascus, to continue this persecution of Christians, Jesus spoke to Paul.It says a light from heaven flashed around him.Paul never said he saw Jesus like the other Apostles did in person after Christ resurrection.It was Jesus voice with a light from heaven that blinded Paul.Paul was temporarily blinded and Ananias healed him by way of holy spirit.If you notice it mentions that Ananias received a vision from Jesus.

Acts 9:10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Yes, Lord," he answered.

and again to Paul

Acts 18:9 One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent.


Immediately after this Paul began preaching.Everyone was still scared of him.Once they saw that he preached Christianity, they all then wanted to kill him.He suffered much persecution.

To think that Paul was not a true Apostle would mean that you would have to not accept 14 of the most important writings in the NT.

Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
Hebrews

Thats half of the NT writings.

 

[Apple Sugar]

If you met Jesus Christ while taking a walk, do you think you'd remember it clearly?
There are three different accounts of Saul meeting a light on the road to Damascus. That light claimed to be Jesus. But it didn't anoint Paul as an Apostle.

And when that light appeared to a Pharisee, a Roman citizen, on his way to kill those who followed Jesus yet again, that light fulfilled what Jesus warned against believing.
Matthew 24:23.
Do you think Jesus would forewarn about such things while in his earthly ministry and then after departing to the Father contradict himself so as to appear before a member of a den of vipers?

Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Paul discounted that in 2 Corinthians 5.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[metis]

People who are Pauline aren't following Christ. They're following a Pharisee.

Jesus was also of the Pharisee tradition.

Also, let me just add that I think your interpretations of what Paul was teaching that supposedly ran against what Jesus taught is most likely faulty. It simply doesn't add up, and an indication of this is the fact that, according to Acts, Paul met with Jesus and the others three times, not including written correspondence with them. Why would they give Paul the time of day if he was teaching trash, especially with Paul's previous background?

 

[Nada]

If you met Jesus Christ while taking a walk, do you think you'd remember it clearly?
There are three different accounts of Saul meeting a light on the road to Damascus. That light claimed to be Jesus. But it didn't anoint Paul as an Apostle.

And when that light appeared to a Pharisee, a Roman citizen, on his way to kill those who followed Jesus yet again, that light fulfilled what Jesus warned against believing.
Matthew 24:23.
Do you think Jesus would forewarn about such things while in his earthly ministry and then after departing to the Father contradict himself so as to appear before a member of a den of vipers?

Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Paul discounted that in 2 Corinthians 5.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

You are mistaken.Matthew 24:23 is speaking of false Christ.Those who preach different things.Not according to the scriptures.In other words Apostates who spread false doctrines.It was not speaking of Paul.

False Christs. In his prophecies on the conclusion of the system of things, Christ warned his followers: “Look out that nobody misleads you; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. For false Christs [Gr., pseu·do′khri·stoi] and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.” (Mt 24:4, 5, 24) Such wicked persons who falsely lay claim to the title and office of the Lord Jesus Christ are included in the an·ti′khri·stos (Greek for “antichrist”) mentioned five times by the apostle John.—1Jo 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2Jo 7;

Christ — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


In Matthew 28:19-20 it is speaking of baptizing people in the name of the Father,the Son and the holy Spirit.To follow the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Paul did not discontinue anything


B]2 Corinthians 5:16,17. So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away; look! new things have come into existence. [/B]

What Paul is saying is that if anyone once knew Jesus as a person,they no longer know him in that way anymore because Jesus Christ is a spirit form now.He is no longer flesh.So,because Jesus is a spirit form now,and is in Heaven,it has become a spiritual union.So those now who become one with the Christ,are doing so by way of a spiritual union.It is not physical.All the people who take in an accurate knowledge about God and become baptized in the name of the Father,Son, and the holy spirit, have now become new creations for they have dedicated their lives to God and follow Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.They have washed away the old personality and put on the new armor of God.


Ephesians 4:23,24. 23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.


Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator.


Ephesians 6:16,17. 16 in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

 

[Nada]

If you met Jesus Christ while taking a walk, do you think you'd remember it clearly?
There are three different accounts of Saul meeting a light on the road to Damascus. That light claimed to be Jesus. But it didn't anoint Paul as an Apostle.

And when that light appeared to a Pharisee, a Roman citizen, on his way to kill those who followed Jesus yet again, that light fulfilled what Jesus warned against believing.
Matthew 24:23.
Do you think Jesus would forewarn about such things while in his earthly ministry and then after departing to the Father contradict himself so as to appear before a member of a den of vipers?

Jesus said in Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Paul discounted that in 2 Corinthians 5.

16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Do not be mislead by false doctrines and teachings of men.Do not be led astray by those with their own opinions about the holy scriptures.Those who speak of Paul not being a true disciple are those with their own agenda.Against the teachings of the holy scriptures.Paul was a true disciple.The original disciples of Jesus Christ were in agreement with him.Jesus Christ began it,Peter continued it as commanded by Christ,and Paul was chosen to continue the preaching work to the Gentiles.Its no coincidence that Paul was from the Pharisees and a Roman citizen.This worked to his advantage many times during his preaching work.From the most unlikely source came a man who had much faith and did Gods will.Inspired to write amazing writings in the NT.14 writings all together.

 

[savagewind]

When Jesus forewarned not to believe anyone who came after him and announced they'd met Christ

Scripture?
This one? Luke 17:23 People will tell you, 'There he is!' or 'Here he is!' Do not go running off after them.
Matthew 24:23
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it.
Mark 13:21
At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it.
Luke 17:21
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."
Luke 21:8
He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them.

Paul never said where Jesus can be found. He said Jesus found him. Past tense.

 

[Apple Sugar]

That's a stretch.
Jesus said if people will tell you, there he is, do not believe them.

What did Saul do? He said what amounts to , there he was! Jesus! Who spoke to me from a light while I was on the road to Damascus.

 

[Apple Sugar]

Do not be mislead by false doctrines and teachings of men.Do not be led astray by those with their own opinions about the holy scriptures...

That's true. And that is exactly what Saul did.
He contradicted much of what Jesus taught. Why? Because he didn't know what Jesus taught.

 

[savagewind]

That's a stretch.
Jesus said if people will tell you, there he is, do not believe them.

What did Saul do? He said what amounts to , there he was! Jesus! Who spoke to me from a light while I was on the road to Damascus.

No. In no way does visiting Paul mean also dwelling with him. Jesus' caution was about people saying where he can be found because he can't be found in any particular place like YHVH could be found in Israel.

The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit. John 3:8

You are the one stretching. Not me.

 

[savagewind]

Is the writer of Revelation also an antichrist for saying where Jesus can be found?

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.Rev 3:20

Am I antichrist for saying he is knocking at your door (you better let him in)?

 

[Nada]

That's true. And that is exactly what Saul did.
He contradicted much of what Jesus taught. Why? Because he didn't know what Jesus taught.

What exactly do you think Paul contradicted?

 

[Apple Sugar]

I've already given examples.

 

[Nada]

I've already given examples.

Ok,well I guess we are done then.Its been nice discussing this with you.You have yourself a great day

 

[Estro Felino]

In the Gospel there are tens of examples that clearly make you understand that you can gain salvation only by doing good. Through works.

For example, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, clearly shows that the selfish and the money-hungry people will go to Hell.
whereas the victims will go to Heaven.

so I don't understand why Paul states that Christ's sacrifice can save the wicked through his blood. It is a meaningless and a sterile concept.