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That irresistable tree!!!
- Thread starter Arrow
- Start date
You are right, Dawn, nothing was said about touching the tree. Quoting from the New RSV, Gen. 2:15, "..And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of inowledge of good and evil you shall not eat...' ".
The commandment of God was broken when Adam deliberately took of the fruit and ate, knowing full well the words of God. But, IMO, this was done because he loved Eve, his "wife" so much that after she ate, he was willing too, just to be with her knowing the consequences. Eve, we are told, was deceived, being told by the serpent, among other things, "you shall not surely die". And, sadly, that lie is believed today.
As for Satan sinning. Have ye not read that it is Satan's nature to lie?
John 8:44, "You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." NRSV.
1 John 3:8, "Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." Now, I do not interpret this as to think the devil could literally generate sinning human beings. It is a figure of speech. Just as in the verse up above, after the Jewish leaders said their father was God, Jesus told them their "father" was the devil, because they didn't believe him.
Another thing, if you can read the Greek scriptures, or have access to a Greek-English Interlinear NT, you will notice that the article "the" before "beginning" is not there in all these verses. It should read "in beginning", not implying it was back at the absolute beginning: In this case, Satan's, or the devil's, beginning.
Bick
The commandment of God was broken when Adam deliberately took of the fruit and ate, knowing full well the words of God. But, IMO, this was done because he loved Eve, his "wife" so much that after she ate, he was willing too, just to be with her knowing the consequences. Eve, we are told, was deceived, being told by the serpent, among other things, "you shall not surely die". And, sadly, that lie is believed today.
As for Satan sinning. Have ye not read that it is Satan's nature to lie?
John 8:44, "You are from your father the devil, and you choose to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies." NRSV.
1 John 3:8, "Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning." Now, I do not interpret this as to think the devil could literally generate sinning human beings. It is a figure of speech. Just as in the verse up above, after the Jewish leaders said their father was God, Jesus told them their "father" was the devil, because they didn't believe him.
Another thing, if you can read the Greek scriptures, or have access to a Greek-English Interlinear NT, you will notice that the article "the" before "beginning" is not there in all these verses. It should read "in beginning", not implying it was back at the absolute beginning: In this case, Satan's, or the devil's, beginning.
Bick
finalfrogo
Well-Known Member
Yes He did; how else would they have known if it was forbidden or not?dawny0826 said:
finalfrogo
Well-Known Member
finalfrogo said:
Whoops nevermind that.
finalfrogo
Well-Known Member
Arrow said:
Do you mean if God never told Adam and Eve to NOT touch the tree?
Sasa
Member
Satan and The Serpent are one in the same. The angels existed before man. But yes, they could have still sinned because they had free will (just like the angels do). Satan, when he was with the Cherubic Order (and before he fell from perfection) was chosen by God as the appointed guardian over the garden of eden. He was supposed to watch over Adam and Eve and let God know if they sinned. Unfortunately... he tempted them into sinning and... well, you know the rest.
This Scripture backs that Satan was the Garden's appointed guardian.
"You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every kind of precious stone covered you: carnelian, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and emerald. Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold; they were prepared on the day you were created. You were an anointed guardian cherub, for I appointed you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones. From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways until wickedness found you." Ezekiel 28:12-15 (HCSB)
This Scripture backs that Satan was the Garden's appointed guardian.
"You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every kind of precious stone covered you: carnelian, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx and jasper, sapphire, turquoise and emerald. Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold; they were prepared on the day you were created. You were an anointed guardian cherub, for I appointed you. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the fiery stones. From the day you were created you were blameless in your ways until wickedness found you." Ezekiel 28:12-15 (HCSB)
gnostic
The Lost One
Since last year, I thought it was illogical to punish Adam and Eve for disobedience.
How can Eve tell right from wrong on what the serpent told her, if she hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit yet? If she didn't eat the fruit, then she really can't distinguish between good and evil, and between right and wrong, so she can't tell if the serpent was lying to her or not.
How can Eve tell right from wrong on what the serpent told her, if she hadn't eaten the forbidden fruit yet? If she didn't eat the fruit, then she really can't distinguish between good and evil, and between right and wrong, so she can't tell if the serpent was lying to her or not.
Sasa
Member
She knew because God told them not to eat from the tree. It was about Obeying God.
"The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die." Genesis 2:15-17 (HCSB)
"The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die." Genesis 2:15-17 (HCSB)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I agree that she was disobedient, but I don't believe that her disobedience was sinful. Sin is the voluntary transgression of a moral law or religious principle. Until she understood the difference between good and evil, she was not capable of sinning. I see her as being in much the same situation as a three-year-old child whose mother says, "Don't touch the stove. It's hot!" The child touches the stove anyway and is burned. He disobeyed his mother and must pay the consequences, but he can hardly be said to be guilty of sinning at that age. He can only be guilty of disobedience. As he gets older and comes to understand that it is wrong to disobey his mother, he becomes able to sin.Sasa said:
gnostic
The Lost One
But how does Adam and Eve distinguish right and wrong, if they haven't eaten the fruit yet?
How can they God was telling the truth? How can they tell that the serpent was telling the truth? They can't, because they haven't eaten the fruit yet.
If they can't tell make the distinction, then they shouldn't have been punished for what they have done. As I said in previous thread, this is a catch-22. They were punished before they knew what was right and what was wrong, and the only they can know that, is if they eat the fruit.
The Genesis' Tree of Knowledge and the punishment of Adam and Eve are illogical. It is not just or fair that God would punish them before they know right from wrong.
How can they God was telling the truth? How can they tell that the serpent was telling the truth? They can't, because they haven't eaten the fruit yet.
If they can't tell make the distinction, then they shouldn't have been punished for what they have done. As I said in previous thread, this is a catch-22. They were punished before they knew what was right and what was wrong, and the only they can know that, is if they eat the fruit.
The Genesis' Tree of Knowledge and the punishment of Adam and Eve are illogical. It is not just or fair that God would punish them before they know right from wrong.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I disgree. I'll go along with the idea that they weren't "sinning" until they knew the difference between good and evil, but God did tell them not to eat the fruit, and He did tell them what would happen to them if they disobeyed. So how was He "unfair" by enforcing the punishment He had warned them of?gnostic said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Would you able to tell right from wrong without eating the fruit, if you were in the same situation as Eve when she met the serpent, Katzpur? Would you be able to tell if what the serpent telling you to be able true or not?
I don't think so. I don't think you would fare any better than Eve.
For that matter, how do you tell God was tellling the truth or not, without knowledge of right and wrong?
You can't.
And if you remember correctly, God only told Adam not to eat the fruit (Genesis 2:15-17), not Eve. Eve wasn't even created yet (Genesis 2:21-23). I don't think God told Eve the same prohibition directly. Did she hear it from Adam or from God?
It doesn't say.
I don't think so. I don't think you would fare any better than Eve.
For that matter, how do you tell God was tellling the truth or not, without knowledge of right and wrong?
You can't.
And if you remember correctly, God only told Adam not to eat the fruit (Genesis 2:15-17), not Eve. Eve wasn't even created yet (Genesis 2:21-23). I don't think God told Eve the same prohibition directly. Did she hear it from Adam or from God?
It doesn't say.
Sasa
Member
Okay, I believe I found the answer. Adam and Eve did know right from wrong. Look at this passage:
"No! You will not die," the serpent said to the woman. "In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5
It says "Knowing good and evil"... not "Knowing good FROM evil."
All Adam and Eve had known thusfar was good and when they ate from the tree, their eyes were opened to evil as well.
"No! You will not die," the serpent said to the woman. "In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5
It says "Knowing good and evil"... not "Knowing good FROM evil."
All Adam and Eve had known thusfar was good and when they ate from the tree, their eyes were opened to evil as well.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Personally, I think you're splitting hairs. It is only by being able to recognize and understand both good and evil that one can begin to choose between them. Everything has its opposite and it is impossible to know what "good" is without also knowing what "evil" is. Just as darkness is the absence of light, evil is the absence of good. Without having experienced darkness, one cannot know what light is, even if he has already experienced light. The same is true of good and evil.Sasa said: