Tell me why please

[Alt Thinker]

I do not believe Jesus went away. If he did go away then what does Matthew 28:20 mean?

The Lord God went away when the house of Israel was abandoned but The Lord God untrusted all God's belongings to the son who acts as intermediary. Are you all saying all those seeking YHVH have had no intermediary all this time?

Also "food at the proper time" is linked to the bread from heaven. It is spiritual. It is not material. Is GOD not able to cloth you as the lillies of the field are clothed. But you are teaching it is not GOD who cares for our material needs. It is the people who will be "rewarded" who do it. "Put first the kingdom and all other things will be added". Will the faith really be found?

Jesus needs to be physically present on Earth to be an intermediary? Do we have to encounter him here on earth for him to function as an intermediary for us? Am I understanding you right?

Matthew 28:20 could be interpreted in a spiritual sense – that Jesus will be with us spiritually and therefore always accessible. Luke 24 and Acts 1 are very explicit about Jesus leaving and going to heaven. Acts 2 reiterates that Jesus is in heaven. In John 16 Jesus says that he is going to the Father. Interpreting Matthew 28:20 in a physical sense would contradict all those things.

Interpreting “food at the proper time” in a spiritual rather than physical sense also raises problems. If you want “the faithful and wise servant” to be Jesus, how is it possible that Jesus might turn “wicked” and “begin to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards”? When the master returns (and who is this master?) “He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”. Could that happen to Jesus?

 

[sojourner]

Jesus needs to be physically present on Earth to be an intermediary? Do we have to encounter him here on earth for him to function as an intermediary for us? Am I understanding you right?

Matthew 28:20 could be interpreted in a spiritual sense – that Jesus will be with us spiritually and therefore always accessible. Luke 24 and Acts 1 are very explicit about Jesus leaving and going to heaven. Acts 2 reiterates that Jesus is in heaven. In John 16 Jesus says that he is going to the Father. Interpreting Matthew 28:20 in a physical sense would contradict all those things.

Interpreting “food at the proper time” in a spiritual rather than physical sense also raises problems. If you want “the faithful and wise servant” to be Jesus, how is it possible that Jesus might turn “wicked” and “begin to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards”? When the master returns (and who is this master?) “He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”. Could that happen to Jesus?

Good point.

 

[savagewind]

Jesus needs to be physically present on Earth to be an intermediary? Do we have to encounter him here on earth for him to function as an intermediary for us? Am I understanding you right?

Matthew 28:20 could be interpreted in a spiritual sense – that Jesus will be with us spiritually and therefore always accessible. Luke 24 and Acts 1 are very explicit about Jesus leaving and going to heaven. Acts 2 reiterates that Jesus is in heaven. In John 16 Jesus says that he is going to the Father. Interpreting Matthew 28:20 in a physical sense would contradict all those things.

Interpreting “food at the proper time” in a spiritual rather than physical sense also raises problems. If you want “the faithful and wise servant” to be Jesus, how is it possible that Jesus might turn “wicked” and “begin to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards”? When the master returns (and who is this master?) “He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”. Could that happen to Jesus?

Jesus knew false brothers would take over the household of God. If you look up Matt 24:48 you will see the word for "that" can mean "other" according to scholars as is shared here: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
he, it, the other, that very
From ekei; that one (or (neuter) thing); often intensified by the article prefixed -- he, it, the other (same), selfsame, that (same, very), X their, X them, they, this, those. See also houtos.

That slave isn't the faithful and wise slave. How is it possible to be wise and wicked together? It isn't. If it were possible he meant a man (or church) that might become wicked he would not have called it faithful.

 

[Alt Thinker]

Here is the relevant section again. Please revise the wording according to what you think it should be. Pay special attention to verse 48.

Matthew 24

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In doing so, be sure to allow these questions to be addressed.

Who is the master who will return?
When did this master go away?

Will this master put Jesus “in charge of all his possessions” when he returns?
What does that mean?

How do you reconcile the idea of Jesus never leaving with the references I gave to other parts of the Gospels that say explicitly that Jesus physically left?

 

[savagewind]

Who is the master who will return?

Return is obviously not a simple word. Why not dwell on this for awhile?
accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively) -- accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Strong's Greek: 2064. ??????? (erchomai) -- to come, go

When did this master go away?

Nobody returns because nobody left. The Holy God does not dwell in sinful man. So Jesus is for God to dwell in us again. Is not the master YHVH? At the sinning God goes away from you. Sinning is uncleanness and God is clean. Nothing clean can come out of anything unclean. So if you are unclean (everyone is until they are sanctified by Jesus) you can truly say God has left you. Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing

Here is the relevant section again. Please revise the wording according to what you think it should be. Pay special attention to verse 48.

YOU link the good servant with the bad one. You are ASSUMING the first one can become the second one. I asked you why does Jesus call the servant faithful if he isn't?

Will this master put Jesus “in charge of all his possessions” when he returns?
What does that mean?

The only way to be a temple of the True God is to be under the charge of God's son.

How can you say Jesus is Lord but he is NOT in charge?

How do you reconcile the idea of Jesus never leaving with the references I gave to other parts of the Gospels that say explicitly that Jesus physically left?

Jesus physically left. Yes. He is with me but I haven't seen him yet.

 

[Alt Thinker]

Return is obviously not a simple word. Why not dwell on this for awhile?
accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow
Middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) eleuthomai el-yoo'-thom-ahee, or (active) eltho el'-tho, which do not otherwise occur) to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively) -- accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.

Strong's Greek: 2064. ??????? (erchomai) -- to come, go

Nobody returns because nobody left. The Holy God does not dwell in sinful man. So Jesus is for God to dwell in us again. Is not the master YHVH? At the sinning God goes away from you. Sinning is uncleanness and God is clean. Nothing clean can come out of anything unclean. So if you are unclean (everyone is until they are sanctified by Jesus) you can truly say God has left you. Habakkuk 1:13 Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing

YOU link the good servant with the bad one. You are ASSUMING the first one can become the second one. I asked you why does Jesus call the servant faithful if he isn't?

The only way to be a temple of the True God is to be under the charge of God's son.

How can you say Jesus is Lord but he is NOT in charge?

Jesus physically left. Yes. He is with me but I haven't seen him yet.

What about my request to reword that section Matthew 24 according to how you think it was really intended? And you still have not reconciled your interpretation with all the other parts of the Gospels that explicitly state that Jesus left and even describe him physically leaving earth and going to heaven.

You can believe anything you want. But reinterpreting single lines out of the overall context to suit your own purposes is not going to convince anyone else.

EDIT: Forgot this part: You say "Jesus physically left. Yes. He is with me but I haven't seen him yet." He left and came back? What exactly do you mean?

 

[savagewind]

What about my request to reword that section Matthew 24 according to how you think it was really intended? And you still have not reconciled your interpretation with all the other parts of the Gospels that explicitly state that Jesus left and even describe him physically leaving earth and going to heaven.

You can believe anything you want. But reinterpreting single lines out of the overall context to suit your own purposes is not going to convince anyone else.

I don't have to reconcile Matthew 24. Maybe you do?

You can believe anything you want. But reinterpreting single lines out of the overall context to suit your own purposes is not going to convince anyone else

Sorry. You are wrong. I do not have a purpose to suit.

You say "Jesus physically left. Yes. He is with me but I haven't seen him yet." He left and came back? What exactly do you mean?

When Jesus died he left physically. The Spirit of Truth never once left. It is gone from people.
God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:27
What does "not far from" mean to You?

 

[Muffled]

Why isn't the faithful and wise servant of Matthew 24:45 Jesus?

I believe it is because Jesus is the Lord of the faithful servant.

"He is Lord, He is Lord, He has risen from the dead and He is Lord,
Every knee shall bow every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." A hymn.

 

[Alt Thinker]

I don't have to reconcile Matthew 24. Maybe you do?

Sorry. You are wrong. I do not have a purpose to suit.

When Jesus died he left physically. The Spirit of Truth never once left. It is gone from people.
God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:27
What does "not far from" mean to You?

Why believe Matthew 24 and disbelieve the others? What is your reason for doing this? Since you say Jesus left physically when he died, and Matthew 24 happens after Jesus was already dead, then the Jesus speaking in Matthew 24 is a spirit. Yet Luke and John emphasize the physicality of the risen Jesus by talking about him eating, which he does to prove that he is physical. If you do not accept them then why do you accept anything Acts says?

And remember Acts starts off with Jesus physically leaving. So when Acts says Jesus is not far, it is clear that spiritual presence is meant. And do not forget that all three Synoptic Gospels go into detail about Jesus returning. John and Acts mention it but in less detail. But Revelation goes into elaborate detail.

Picking and choosing which verses you want to support your contention while ignoring the many others that flatly contradict it shows that you DO have a purpose. Again, you can believe anything you want. But if you want to convince anyone (and why else are you posting in a debate forum?) you have to deal with that issue.

On the other hand, it is an old game for Christians to extract one-liners out of context and build elaborate theologies that do not agree with the main thrust of the scriptures. So you are in good company.

 

[Muffled]

OK. Please explain it. Jesus is servant to God the Father, the Real Master. Why do you think The Father is not master?

Why did Jessu say to the devil "it is God you must worship and serve him alone"? Matthew 4:10

Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[savagewind]

Why believe Matthew 24 and disbelieve the others? What is your reason for doing this? Since you say Jesus left physically when he died, and Matthew 24 happens after Jesus was already dead, then the Jesus speaking in Matthew 24 is a spirit. Yet Luke and John emphasize the physicality of the risen Jesus by talking about him eating, which he does to prove that he is physical. If you do not accept them then why do you accept anything Acts says?

And remember Acts starts off with Jesus physically leaving. So when Acts says Jesus is not far, it is clear that spiritual presence is meant. And do not forget that all three Synoptic Gospels go into detail about Jesus returning. John and Acts mention it but in less detail. But Revelation goes into elaborate detail.

Picking and choosing which verses you want to support your contention while ignoring the many others that flatly contradict it shows that you DO have a purpose.
On the other hand, it is an old game for Christians to extract one-liners out of context and build elaborate theologies that do not agree with the main thrust of the scriptures. So you are in good company.

How would you feel if someone talked to YOU that way? Maybe you would feel beat up.

You are asking questions but not being specific. Jesus comes back to everyone shedding sin. So the scriptures about his coming back are about THAT.

Since you say Jesus left physically when he died, and Matthew 24 happens after Jesus was already dead, then the Jesus speaking in Matthew 24 is a spirit.

This is interesting. What does it mean?

Again, you can believe anything you want. But if you want to convince anyone (and why else are you posting in a debate forum?) you have to deal with that issue.

I CAN believe anything I want? That is not christian of you to say so. Are you?

It is against forum rules to convince anyone to change their minds. That is called proselytizing.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus receives people of faith from The Father. (the scripture is there) Then does he pass them to the church? Why?

I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. John 17:6

I believe Jesus is the church. Nothing is passed. Something without Jesus calling itself the church is not the church.

 

[savagewind]

I believe Jesus is the church. Nothing is passed. Something without Jesus calling itself the church is not the church.

Some words of wisdom. Good!

 

[Desert Snake]

God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:27
What does "not far from" mean to You?

I'll answer this to my understanding. Jesus left after the resurrection (and some time preaching), by ascending into Heaven. He was physically gone at that point. 'Not far' means He is close in Spirit. Jesus still 'rules' of course, that is why we worship Him.

 

[Alt Thinker]

How would you feel if someone talked to YOU that way? Maybe you would feel beat up.

You are asking questions but not being specific. Jesus comes back to everyone shedding sin. So the scriptures about his coming back are about THAT.

This is interesting. What does it mean?
I CAN believe anything I want? That is not christian of uou to say so. Are you?

It is against forum rules to convince anyone to change their minds. That is called proselytizing.

I did not mean to beat you up. I retract any offending language. But this is a debating forum and you must expect disagreements.

The scriptures are very explicit about what it will be like when Jesus returns.

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call,and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

As I said Revelation goes into far more detail.

According to these, when we see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with angels that will be it. That expectation is in accord with the Book of Daniel.


No, I am not a Christian. But neither am I anti-religion. I have studied the scriptures especially the Gospels in great depth because I find them a fascinating record of the evolution of religious thought. I see a definite coherent consistent original message in the Gospels that fits into the context of those days. I do not believe the theological accretions but I see that they are tied to the message. I therefore reserve the right to challenge interpretations that are at variance with that core message. And I recognize the right of anyone to challenge me in return.

So when I say you can believe anything you want, I mean I have no objection to you holding any particular belief. But if you want to present your beliefs about the meaning of scripture on a debating forum, they are liable to be challenged.

I did not accuse you of proselytizing which is another matter. That would be you trying to convert others. But this is a debate forum and the purpose of debate is to convince others that your viewpoint has merit. I can challenge your interpretation of scriptures. I can say your viewpoint does or does not have merit in the context of the scriptures. If I were to admit to it having merit in the context of the scriptures, you would have been successful in the debate. But that does not mean I would be convinced of anything about the real world. See the difference?

 

[savagewind]

I'll answer this to my understanding. Jesus left after the resurrection (and some time preaching), by ascending into Heaven. He was physically gone at that point. 'Not far' means He is close in Spirit. Jesus still 'rules' of course, that is why we worship Him.

OK I agree

 

[savagewind]

I did not mean to beat you up. I retract any offending language. But this is a debating forum and you must expect disagreements.

The scriptures are very explicit about what it will be like when Jesus returns.




Mark 13
24 “But in those days, following that distress,
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Matthew 24
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call,and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Luke 21
25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

According to these, when we see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with angels that will be it. That expectation is in accord with the Book of Daniel.

I see many people in anguish. I see signs in the sun and moon and stars. Do you know Islam prophesies the sun, moon and stars will be desttoyed. I call that a sign.

Jesus coming in the clouds with his angels can mean their coming is like the weather. Sometimes he is eating with me and sometimes he is not. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Rev 3:20. The angels with him might mean they are always ready to protect.
When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh no, my lord! What shall we do?" the servant asked. "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." Before Jesus there were angels to protect God's people. Now after Jesus there AREN'T????

No, I am not a Christian. But neither am I anti-religion. I have studied the scriptures especially the Gospels in great depth because I find them a fascinating record of the evolution of religious thought. I see a definite coherent consistent original message in the Gospels that fits into the context of those days. I do not believe the theological accretions but I see that they are tied to the message. I therefore reserve the right to challenge interpretations that are at variance with that core message. And I recognize the right of anyone to challenge me in return.

So when I say you can believe anything you want, I mean I have no objection to you holding any particular belief. But if you want to present your beliefs about the meaning of scripture on a debating forum, they are liable to be challenged.

I did not accuse you of proselytizing which is another matter. That would be you trying to convert others. But this is a debate forum and the purpose of debate is to convince others that your viewpoint has merit. I can challenge your interpretation of scriptures. I can say your viewpoint does or does not have merit in the context of the scriptures. If I were to admit to it having merit in the context of the scriptures, you would have been successful in the debate. But that does not mean I would be convinced of anything about the real world. See the difference?

Thank you. Nice speach.

 

[Alt Thinker]

I see many people in anguish. I see signs in the sun and moon and stars. Do you know Islam prophesies the sun, moon and stars will be desttoyed. I call that a sign.

Jesus coming in the clouds with his angels can mean their coming is like the weather. Sometimes he is eating with me and sometimes he is not. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Rev 3:20. The angels with him might mean they are always ready to protect.
When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh no, my lord! What shall we do?" the servant asked. "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." Before Jesus there were angels to protect God's people. Now after Jesus there AREN'T????

The Olivet Discourse passages are quite explicit that Jesus will be seen by people in the clouds with angels. Examle:

Matthew 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Hardly seems metaphorical. Seems very explicit that there will be a real recognizable observable event in the clouds. Also that angels will gather the elect. There are (presumably) angels around (according to scripture) but not gathering any elect.

 

[savagewind]

The Olivet Discourse passages are quite explicit that Jesus will be seen by people in the clouds with angels. Examle:

Matthew 24:30-31 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Hardly seems metaphorical. Seems very explicit that there will be a real recognizable observable event in the clouds. Also that angels will gather the elect. There are (presumably) angels around (according to scripture) but not gathering any elect.

Let's assume you are not one of the elect. You are not so you would not know if the elect are being gathered. Tell me how you would know that, seeing that you know that.

 

[savagewind]

"All the peoples of earth will mourn his coming" Say WHAT??????? Maybe you should look up the word mourn.