Swedish "Feminist" officials wear headscarves in Iran

[dust1n]

If it happened more often, they might get the right message.

The message being that France intends not engage in diplomacy?

 

[icehorse]

If one goes to a country which has a dress code, I don't see a problem with following the code.
Don't like it....then don't go.
If a Yanamami came to Americastan in their normal attire, they'd get arrested.....& they'd be cold.
So we all have some standards we impose upon others.
We can make minor accommodations when in ferrin lands.

would that it were a "minor accommodation"

 

[dust1n]

Why are the non muslims always and always expected to respect the so called muslim law?

Generally, I don't expect them to, even if it would be better that they might. I mean, self-righteousness probably doesn't mean much to people who spent good portions of the last century throwing out European imperialists, so I'm not sure what good they think they are doing...

 

[icehorse]

The message being that France intends not engage in diplomacy?

The message being that state sponsored misogyny will not be tacitly agreed to.

It's 2017 people, can we at least stand up for some rudimentary human rights?

 

[Revoltingest]

would that it were a "minor accommodation"

Wearing a scarf looks pretty minor.
It's not like they were required to wear veil.

 

[dust1n]

The message being that state sponsored misogyny will not be tacitly agreed to.

It's 2017 people, can we at least stand up for some rudimentary human rights?

Okay, so the state sponsered misogyny will continue, it just won't be agreed to, and also why bother with diplomacy.

Also, the mention of human rights seem sort of extraneous. To a lot of people in the Middle East, depending on their country, etc., their dealings with people who claim to have some special relationship with human rights, are often the same people helping a coup overthrow their government.

But, if it's human rights one is concerned about, I'd be more worried about Syrian death camps, or ISIS, or us drone bombing civilians in Yemen to help Saudi Arabia... a politician wearing a piece of cloth on her heard for a state visit to a culture that is fundamentally different from their own by comparison seems very trivial...

 

[icehorse]

How is my argument a false choice?

Also, wouldn't not wearing the headscarves--as you say the Swedish officials should have done--have broken the law?

As I reread your posts it seems they are a bit inconsistent. The point I was making is that it's a false choice to say it's:

EITHER: wear the scarf OR break the law.

 

[icehorse]

Okay, so the state sponsered misogyny will continue, it just won't be agreed to, and also why bother with diplomacy.

Also, the mention of human rights seem sort of extraneous. To a lot of people in the Middle East, depending on their country, etc., their dealings with people who claim to have some special relationship with human rights, are often the same people helping a coup overthrow their government.

But, if it's human rights one is concerned about, I'd be more worried about Syrian death camps, or ISIS, or us drone bombing civilians in Yemen to help Saudi Arabia... a politician wearing a piece of cloth on her heard for a state visit to a culture that is fundamentally different from their own by comparison seems very trivial...

In Iran apostasy is a capital crime. So for many women in Iran they are born into a situation from which they cannot escape and which might well mean a lifetime of abuse behind closed doors. If apostasy wasn't a capital crime I might feel differently, but the frequency of physical coercion in such societies is extremely high.

Yes, ISIS and Syria are also horrible problems, but let's not minimize this one.

 

[dust1n]

In Iran apostasy is a capital crime. So for many women in Iran they are born into a situation from which they cannot escape and which might well mean a lifetime of abuse behind closed doors. If apostasy wasn't a capital crime I might feel differently, but the frequency of physical coercion in such societies is extremely high.

Yes, ISIS and Syria are also horrible problems, but let's not minimize this one.

Okay, if we are going to speak of countries with disagreeable criminal structures, and I could certainly name many, including Iran, I'm wondering why to specifically focus on Iran, when the situation is the same in SA (whom we currently helping to overthrow the coup in Yemen). It's true in Pakistan, which has been a military partner for years at a time. Economic slavery literally still exists in Pakistan; it's literally as close to chattel slavery you can get. Women in Jordan have to deal with similar instances, and yet we have been military allies for 30 years now. Russia state television openly encourages violence against homosexuals and just made it legal for people to beat their wives. We buy shrimp and fish from enslaved fishers who have been held hostage on fishing vessels in Southeast Asia for a months and years a time...

I'm thinking whether or not a diplomat from Europe wearing whatever is not going to have any meaningful effect on the plight of women in Iran. However, maintaining diplomatic relations is essential for long-term peace... Women aren't going to get magically get rights if we suddenly ignore other countries...

 

[icehorse]

I'm thinking whether or not a diplomat from Europe wearing whatever is not going to have any meaningful effect on the plight of women in Iran.

Claiming diplomatic immunity (if necessary), and not wearing a headscarf seems to me to be self-consistent with feminism AND seems to me to be an extremely gentle form of pressure and protest. If this gentle act threatens diplomatic relations with such a country then how can any progress be made?

 

[dust1n]

Claiming diplomatic immunity (if necessary), and not wearing a headscarf seems to me to be self-consistent with feminism AND seems to me to be an extremely gentle form of pressure and protest. If this gentle act threatens diplomatic relations with such a country then how can any progress be made?

Okay, but if the person who you are trying to have diplomatic relations with just says, alright never mind then, we just won't have a meeting (such as Mufti of Palestine did to Le Pen) then you've also neither advanced any "progress" and now also you didn't have the diplomatic relations? What does that achieve? What would that soft protest do for any of the women in Iran that you are looking out for?

 

[icehorse]

Okay, but if the person who you are trying to have diplomatic relations with just says, alright never mind then, we just won't have a meeting (such as Mufti of Palestine did to Le Pen) then you've also neither advanced any "progress" and now also you didn't have the diplomatic relations? What does that achieve? What would that soft protest do for any of the women in Iran that you are looking out for?

I guess that's the $64,000 question. From my perspective if enough leaders start making such soft protests I think progress can be made. As it stands in this case, the Swedes simply appeased and further cemented Iran's ability to sustain this misogyny without consequence.

 

[Debater Slayer]

This is a very good point, but in my opinion they are the same thing. Because if I were a woman, and I would visit Iran, I wouldn't find despicable to wear the headscarf: I would think it's a rule, a custom and it must be respected. If I choose to go to a foreign country (and nobody forces me), I am fascinated by that culture, and I don't intend to criticize the customs or the laws of that country.
Maybe because I have a cosmopolitan mindset that prevents me from comparing different cultures with one another. Also because any culture deserves respect and not criticism.

Just saw this; I didn't notice it because you edited it into an existing post as opposed to replying in a new one.

I disagree with you that any culture deserves respect. I think some cultures not only should be but must be criticized. Iranian culture is one of those in more than one way. As far as I can see, the main issue here isn't one of respect for Iranian culture but rather of how to express criticism and condemnation of its problematic aspects, like imposing a particular dress code on women regardless of whether or not they themselves want to wear it. Many women are born in places like Iran and don't have the privilege of choosing to leave, so it seems to me that anyone with the ability to influence change in Iranian laws should try to do so. Foreign officials' refusal to wear headscarves while in Iran doesn't strike me as an action that could have such an effect, though.

 

[Estro Felino]

Just saw this; I didn't notice it because you edited it into an existing post as opposed to replying in a new one.

I disagree with you that any culture deserves respect. I think some cultures not only should be but must be criticized. Iranian culture is one of those in more than one way. As far as I can see, the main issue here isn't one of respect for Iranian culture but rather of how to express criticism and condemnation of its problematic aspects, like imposing a particular dress code on women regardless of whether or not they themselves want to wear it. Many women are born in places like Iran and don't have the privilege of choosing to leave, so it seems to me that anyone with the ability to influence change in Iranian laws should try to do so. Foreign officials' refusal to wear headscarves while in Iran doesn't strike me as an action that could have such an effect, though.

Your speech is really logical and profound, but I have to disagree. Because we are foreigners to them:it's not our task to care about the laws and customs of a sovereign country.
If Iranians want to change their laws, they can do that alone.

And consequently, I wouldn't want any foreigner to criticize or to try to change the secular laws of my country.
I think that mutual respect among sovereign nations is something very important.

What's your take on countries who don't provide to their citizens basic human rights?

It' a culture I don't understand, and if this kind of rules brings suffering to people, this makes me sad, of course.

 

[icehorse]

Because we are foreigners to them:it's not our task to care about the laws and customs of a sovereign country.

What's your take on countries who don't provide to their citizens basic human rights?

 

[dust1n]

I guess that's the $64,000 question. From my perspective if enough leaders start making such soft protests I think progress can be made.

I guess. I mean it's possible. Or maybe they take it like they are being antagonized for their religion, instead increasing tensions for no particular aim.

As it stands in this case, the Swedes simply appeased and further cemented Iran's ability to sustain this misogyny without consequence.

How do we exactly know this is the case? Am I to assume their meeting didn't mean anything or had no results?

 

[icehorse]

How do we exactly know this is the case?

I do not know this for sure, but I'd bet $100 that the discussion didn't involve Islamic misogyny. If it did, then it would be harder to argue the case while wearing a headscarf under duress.

Or maybe they take it like they are being antagonized for their religion, instead increasing tensions for no particular aim.

I think the leaders of "Islamic" nations are well aware of the pressure to conform to international human rights standards.

 

[dust1n]

I do not know this for sure, but I'd bet $100 that the discussion didn't involve Islamic misogyny. If it did, then it would be harder to argue the case while wearing a headscarf under duress.

Okay. Let's assume the government employee overseeing a branch of a government devoted to EU Affairs and Trade were to refuse to wear a headscarf. Now they still haven't discussed Islamic misogyny, or any form of misogyny for that matter, and also they didn't discuss trade.

Generally when you are trying to convince people with differing views than you to think consider an alternative line of though, it usually helps to find a common ground of understanding and agreement and work from there, rather than directly attacking a singular difference (sort of hypocritically seeing how, again, America helps SA overthrow a government, despite the fact they are really no different) and just ignoring any common ground two disagreeing parties might have.

It would be thing if you were talking about some private individual or something going. But we are talking about someone who heads a Department of Trade... is that really the person who you should have leading your efforts to end "Islamic misogyny"? Is that really the time and hill you are willing to die on?

I think the leaders of "Islamic" nations are well aware of the pressure to conform to international human rights standards.

I'm sure most leaders are well aware of the pressure to conform to int'l human rights standards... well, except America's now. I'm not actually sure they are aware of this pressure.

 

[icehorse]

Okay. Let's assume the government employee overseeing a branch of a government devoted to EU Affairs and Trade were to refuse to wear a headscarf. Now they still haven't discussed Islamic misogyny, or any form of misogyny for that matter, and also they didn't discuss trade.

To me it's a question of priorities. If you're one of these Swedish officials - who have self-declared as being a "feminist government" (or some such) - then what's your priority? Feminism or trade with Iran?

 

[Notanumber]

Body language can speak volumes. I was impressed by Le Pen.

Warning there is some ripe language in this video, but they are right when they say she is not a Muslim, etc.