Surrogacy

[Estro Felino]

Yes, but some people really want their offspring to be biologically connected to them. And that's a difficult thing to achieve for a homosexual couple. Impossible without third party help. But that desire should not be allowed to overwhelm our fundamental respect for the sanctity of human bodily autonomy.

If a third party willingly offers their body to provide the homosexual couple that aid, that is their right. And the state has no business intervening. But when money becomes the determining factor of that 'willingness', then the willingness is no longer genuine. It's being coerced. And that is where the line protecting bodily autonomy is being crossed, and the state should step in and disallow it.

I understand.
But maybe this speech makes sense only in extremely liberal America.
In my country, everything is controlled, monitored by the State.

So the State is interested in your sex life, when children, that is minors, are involved.
And so, if two lesbians decide to become parents, the State want to know how it happened.

For example...whether the lesbian woman in question had sex with a random stranger she met in a pub...or whether she went abroad and had artificial insemination.

 

[PureX]

I understand.
But maybe this speech makes sense only in extremely liberal America.
In my country, everything is controlled, monitored by the State.

So the State is interested in your sex life, when children, that is minors, are involved.
And so, if two lesbians decide to become parents, the State want to know how it happened.

For example...whether the lesbian woman in question had sex with a random stranger she met in a pub...or whether she went abroad and had artificial insemination.

I understand why the state wants to know this. As it presumably wants to discourage it's citizens from abusing the right of bodily autonomy of the citizens of other countries when they are not allowed to do so at home. But try as it might there are limits to what the state can know, or control. And if the citizens of other countries are allowed to sell their bodily autonomy for money, Italians will be allowed to purchase it while in those other countries. And there just isn't much the state can do about it. Why and with whom a woman becomes pregnant is something that the state cannot control. And once it has occurred, the child deserves the state's support, regardless.

My suggestion to homosexuals that want to have biological children would be to act in support of each other's quest.

 

[Estro Felino]

I understand why the state wants to know this. As it presumably wants to discourage it's citizens from abusing the right of bodily autonomy of the citizens of other countries when they are not allowed to do so at home. But try as it might there are limits to what the state can know, or control. And if the citizens of other countries are allowed to sell their bodily autonomy for money, Italians will be allowed to purchase it while in those other countries. And there just isn't much the state can do about it. Why and with whom a woman becomes pregnant is something that the state cannot control. And once it has occurred, the child deserves the state's support, regardless.

My suggestion to homosexuals that want to have biological children would be to act in support of each other's quest.

Bravo. You understood it perfectly.
The entire juridical framework wants to dissuade LGBTs from having biological children.

Nevertheless, the adoption pathway is much more doable, because it's all under the law's supervision. And in fact there are even single men who can adopt.

 

[The Hammer]

Why the **** should surrogacy be illegal? That's sounds asinine?

"Be fruitful and multiply" right Catholics?

For us Pagans the natural order of things is fertility, life and death, why not have surrogate children?

By the Gods *exasperated*

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some seem to not realize surrogacy isn't uncommon, and is something lots of infertile hetero couples have resorted to.
And shame on assuming she's pressured amd money is the only reason. Some women have done it to help a friend or family. But if she's paid so what? Doctor check up, vitamins, morning sickness, disruption to normal daily life, amd pushing a little human oit of her vagina, what's wrong with compensating her for all that?

And screw Italy. Kids needs loving, supportive homes more than they need to have both a mother and father. Conservative Christians need to desperately wake up and realize their crusade against gay parents hurts kids (especially those needing adopted).

 

[PureX]

Bravo. You understood it perfectly.
The entire juridical framework wants to dissuade LGBTs from having biological children.

And sadly, if this is the case (and it probably is) they are quite wrong in this.

There is no logical reason for the state to discourage homosexuals from having biological children, as they are no less capable of being good biological parents than anyone else is. The problem is that they cannot achieve this goal by themselves. They need "surrogates" to do it. And this is where the state needs to apply it's oversight ... to protect the bodily autonomy of everyone else from the economic abuse that will inevitably follow that need for a physical surrogate (and this is not just about homosexuals needing surrogates. It also applies to some heterosexual couples that can't have biological children without using surrogates, too).

Nevertheless, the adoption pathway is much more doable, because it's all under the law's supervision. And in fact there are even single men who can adopt.

Adoption is a good option for those who are willing and able. But some people have their hearts set of having biological offspring. And their desires are not irrelevant.

 

[The Hammer]

Except the reason for the laws in the OP is an attempt to stifle human trafficking.
NOT an attack on LGBT.

But whatever floats y'all boats.

That may be what they are saying officially, but is it true. Just like the "anti-drag/anti-trans" pushes here in the US are to 'protect the children'. That may sound good on the papers, but I doubt that's the sole motivator.

 

[Estro Felino]

Why the **** should surrogacy be illegal? That's sounds asinine?

"Be fruitful and multiply" right Catholics?

For us Pagans the natural order of things is fertility, life and death, why not have surrogate children?

By the Gods *exasperated*

Catholics have another mindset.
Blaming God.

So it's good when you are sterile or can't have babies for a Catholic.
You have something to blame on God when you meet Him in the afterlife.

 

[The Hammer]

Italy also has an aging population crisis, they need all the children they can .

Italy’s Population Is Aging And Something Must Be Done

With longer life expectancies and low birth rates, Italy's population is in decline. We look at why this matters and some possible solutions.

italicsmag.com

 

[Estro Felino]

But some people have their hearts set of having biological offspring.

A desire I have never understood, honestly.
What is it?
The desire of passing on their beauty, their DNA to future generations?

The illusion that they will live forever, through their offspring, even when they die?

What is it?

 

[The Hammer]

Catholics have another mindset.
Blaming God.

So it's good when you are sterile or can't have babies for a Catholic.
You have something to blame on God when you meet Him in the afterlife.

While I can understand the idea, this doesn't make much sense to me.

If you have to curse and blame your gods, are you talking to the right ones?

 

[PureX]

A desire I have never understood, honestly.

What does our understanding it have to do with it. People want what they want. They are who they are. Such is life.

What is it?
The desire of passing on their beauty, their DNA to future generations?

Probably that and many similar reasons. And why not? Why shouldn't they want this? It sounds like a perfectly natural desire, to me.

The illusion that they will live forever, through their offspring, even when they die?

I don't think it goes quite that far. But I do think some people want to see themselves as being part of an ongoing genetic lineage.

 

[The Hammer]

A desire I have never understood, honestly.
What is it?
The desire of passing on their beauty, their DNA to future generations?

The illusion that they will live forever, through their offspring, even when they die?

What is it?

My desire to have children was to pass on my life experiences, knowledge and love to a future generation , so that they can hopefully contribute to the continuation of society by sharing that with others after I am gone.

 

[The Hammer]

The desire of passing on their beauty

Why the obsession with "beauty". You bring it up anytime people are discussing love, or kids, or couples in general.

Beauty is physicality and that is... well not that important really.

 

[Estro Felino]

What does our understanding it have to do with it. People want what they want. They are who they are. Such is life.

Exactly. I was wondering.

Probably that and many similar reasons. And why not? Why shouldn't they want this? It sounds like a perfectly natural desire, to me.

Because God made them gay.
If God had wanted them to procreate, He would have made them heterosexual.
I mean...duh?
So at least they have someone to blame for their childlessness.

I know...it sounds completely weird to you.
That's how Catholics reason.

I don't think it goes quite that far. But I do think some people want to see themselves as being part of an ongoing genetic lineage.

I understand.

 

[Estro Felino]

My desire to have children was to pass on my life experiences, knowledge and love to a future generation , so that they can hopefully contribute to the continuation of society by sharing that with others after I am gone.

I understand.
But heterosexuals procreate in a much simpler way.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I understand.
But heterosexuals procreate in a much simpler way.

Gay or straight, sperm meets egg and gets implanted and a pregnancy begins.

 

[The Hammer]

I understand.
But heterosexuals procreate in a much simpler way.

Simple doesn't mean right.

My wife's pregnancy was anything but natural and simple.

Does Italy ban IV fertilization or IUI fertilization? If not, then it's not about simplicity or naturalness.

 

[PureX]

Because God made them gay.
If God had wanted them to procreate, He would have made them heterosexual.
I mean...duh?
So at least they have someone to blame for their childlessness.

Not everyone is Catholic. Even in Italy. And not all Catholics think like that. I was raised Catholic, and I don't think like that.

You asked and I gave you some reasonable answers, but now you want to ignore them in favor of an irrational religious bias. That's your choice, but not one most people will respect.

I know...it sounds completely weird to you.
That's how Catholics reason.

No it's not. There are plenty of Catholics that don't ignore the very real desires of others by saying "it's God's fault they are being denied".

I understand.

But do you care?

 

[Estro Felino]

Not everyone is Catholic. Even in Italy. And not all Catholics think like that. I was raised Catholic, and I don't think like that.

You asked and I gave you some reasonable answers, but now you want to ignore them in favor of an irrational religious bias. That's your choice, but not one most people will respect.

No it's not. There are plenty of Catholics that don't ignore the very real desires of others by saying "it's God's fault they are being denied".

But do you care?

Yes...when it deals with minors, I do care.

Example. Singer Tiziano Ferro. He married a man in 2019, in Italy. In 2022 he became father of two children, a boy and a girl, via surrogacy. In 2023, he divorced his husband.

Imagine his children's welfare. They will have to know that their parents married and divorced in less than four years. After they were born.

Homosexual relationships are not particularly known for being everlasting...without big generalizations.

So...surrogacy complicates things.
Because the non-biological father will not feel "juridically bound" to the child that has zero DNA of him.