Sure Jesus died for me, but what has he done for me today?

[nutshell]

That's interesting. I've always interpreted Chapter 12 of Revelation to describe Satan's role in events that have to occur. Interesting to learn of the LDS interpretation of that verse. (I'm not trying to debate it or anything.)

Thanks for your post.

I think the chapter inlcudes both what Satan has done and what he will do. Most of the chapter is past tense, using the word "was." For example: And there was a war in heaven. Now, I don't know much about translations so I'm not saying because the chapter was written in past tense proves these things already happened, but, as I mentioned, it is LDS beliefs that this war started in the pre-existance and continues today as evidenced in verse 17.

 

[Smoke]

Many people argue the following...
"If you want to see how much Jesus loves you, look at how he was tortured and crucified for your sins."

I really get tired of that. People are always telling me The Passion of the Christ™ is a great movie, because "people need to see what Jesus went through for them."

What I'm always thinking when I hear that is: What Jesus went through was horrible. It's horrible to torture people and kill them, and nobody should have to go through that. (Something all the supporters of GW Bush should think on.) But what we're talking about here is one really, really, bad day. And then it was over. As suffering goes, it doesn't compare to being tortured over a long period of time, and it doesn't compare to dying of lung cancer or Alzheimer's disease. It doesn't even compare to the murder of Matthew Shepard, because Matthew lingered longer.

I don't believe in substitutionary atonement in the first place, but I understand that many people do -- however morally repellent such a doctrine may be. What I don't understand is how they imagine that the suffering of Jesus is something like the World Record of Suffering. That kind of thing and worse happens all the time, often with the full support of the people who want us to feel guilty about Jesus.

 

[mrscardero]

Jesus took on ALL the sins in the world when he died on the cross, not just general sin. He took on every single one of each person's sins on the cross. Let's just say that I were to curse someone, or any other sin you can think of. Well, Jesus died FOR ME CURSING SOMEONE. He also died for murders, shootings, any other sin you can think of. He died for every last sin.

Does this mean that he is still dying for our sins? He died for murders, shootings, and any other sins, but what about the sins that everyone has now? What about the murderers, the shooters, the sinners period? It reads that he got up on the cross, sucked everyones sins and took it with him in his death. It reads that we no longer have sins since he took it with him. I am confused but that doesn't surprise me. I am easily confused. But what about now? Do we still have sins? Will someone have to be crusified in order for our sins to be taken away so we can be cleansed of our sins?

 

[nutshell]

I really get tired of that. People are always telling me The Passion of the Christ™ is a great movie, because "people need to see what Jesus went through for them."

What I'm always thinking when I hear that is: What Jesus went through was horrible. It's horrible to torture people and kill them, and nobody should have to go through that. (Something all the supporters of GW Bush should think on.) But what we're talking about here is one really, really, bad day. And then it was over. As suffering goes, it doesn't compare to being tortured over a long period of time, and it doesn't compare to dying of lung cancer or Alzheimer's disease. It doesn't even compare to the murder of Matthew Shepard, because Matthew lingered longer.

I don't believe in substitutionary atonement in the first place, but I understand that many people do -- however morally repellent such a doctrine may be. What I don't understand is how they imagine that the suffering of Jesus is something like the World Record of Suffering. That kind of thing and worse happens all the time, often with the full support of the people who want us to feel guilty about Jesus.

You obviously have no idea what Jesus went through. No film could ever depict it and yes, it's worse than any of the examples you provided.

 

[Smoke]

You obviously have no idea what Jesus went through.

Right. I never heard of Christianity till I left my cave last week for the first time.

No film could ever depict it

Why?

 

[nutshell]

Jesus Christ didn't just suffer for our sins. He experienced every pain, sickness, and negative thing that every person who would ever lived feel. He knows with perfect knowledge what Matthew Sheperd and others went through. He knows with perfect knowledge the pain of patiens dying of brain cancer. He knows with perfect knowledge the helplessness that comes with severe depression. He knows all of these things. Perfectly. That's why he is our Savior and Judge. He has experienced it all.

Do you really think a film could depict what that must have been like? It wasn't just physical torture. He's very spirit was broken in a way we could never completely comprehend.

 

[Squirt]

Jesus Christ didn't just suffer for our sins. He experienced every pain, sickness, and negative thing that every person who would ever lived feel. He knows with perfect knowledge what Matthew Sheperd and others went through. He knows with perfect knowledge the pain of patiens dying of brain cancer. He knows with perfect knowledge the helplessness that comes with severe depression. He knows all of these things. Perfectly. That's why he is our Savior and Judge. He has experienced it all.

Do you really think a film could depict what that must have been like? It wasn't just physical torture. He's very spirit was broken in a way we could never completely comprehend.

I agree 100%. I am confident that the Savior's physical pain was nothing in comparison to the mental anguish you have described.

 

[Smoke]

Jesus Christ didn't just suffer for our sins. He experienced every pain, sickness, and negative thing that every person who would ever lived feel.

That's a very subjective opinion. It's not in the Bible; is it part of LDS teachings or your own idea?

Jesus never suffered the debilitating effects of old age. He never had to bury a beloved spouse, or an only child, or even his mother. He never lingered for years in unbearable pain, wanting to die but not being able to. I've seen a lot of people suffer, and I've seen a lot of people die. Some of them would gladly have changed places with Jesus.

Do you really think a film could depict what that must have been like? It wasn't just physical torture. He's very spirit was broken in a way we could never completely comprehend.

It happens every day, to people you never heard of.

 

[nutshell]

^^^^
As I said, you obviously don't understand. He did experience the affects of old age, mental anguish, etc. That's part of the atonement so that he could know each of us personally and exactly. He suffered EVERYTHING we could come up with and MORE!

 

[Squirt]

That's a very subjective opinion. It's not in the Bible; is it part of LDS teachings or your own idea?

Jesus never suffered the debilitating effects of old age. He never had to bury a beloved spouse, or an only child, or even his mother. He never lingered for years in unbearable pain, wanting to die but not being able to. I've seen a lot of people suffer, and I've seen a lot of people die. Some of them would gladly have changed places with Jesus.

It happens every day, to people you never heard of.

I disagree. I don't know how He did it, but I believe He really did experience, on some level, all of these things. I believe He felt every negative thing (pain, guilt, fear, etc.) that it is possible for a human being to experience. I don't believe that anyone who says they would gladly have changed places with Jesus has even the remotest concept of what He went through.

 

[Smoke]

^^^^
As I said, you obviously don't understand. He did experience the affects of old age, mental anguish, etc. That's part of the atonement so that he could know each of us personally and exactly. He suffered EVERYTHING we could come up with and MORE!

I understand what you're saying, but I don't understand why you believe that.

I disagree. I don't know how He did it, but I believe He really did experience, on some level, all of these things. I believe He felt every negative thing (pain, guilt, fear, etc.) that it is possible for a human being to experience.

Same question. Why do you believe that?

 

[dawny0826]

What I don't understand is how they imagine that the suffering of Jesus is something like the World Record of Suffering.

It really WAS the world record of suffering...as he took upon himself all the suffering...all the sins...all the worry and burden from everyone. That's the Christian perspective. And when you feel that way, a movie like "Passion of the Christ" truly hits home.

 

[Anastasios]

I'd be interested in reading the scripture in the Bible which supposedly disproves that Christ died on the cross and was resurected. Please share.

It most like not be from YOUR bible but from the Quran

Dear Friends
First, I'm talking about bible, more specifically NT. Quran is no bible.
I gave some links before about it. Please read the articles in the links I gave in order to understand the whole idea. I cannot write them all here. And this is not only an islamic issue, modern researches also take us to this conclusion. In one these threads of this forum, I had also given some book lists which included a great deal of book names about these matters (I cannot find them now where they are, I am sorry).

This is the natural, logical and rational story of Jesus' so-called "Death on the cross".

http://www.alislam.org/library/dcross.html
http://www.alislam.org/books/jesus-...a/contents.html
http://www.alislam.org/library/jesus.html

 

[sojourner]

Does this mean that he is still dying for our sins? He died for murders, shootings, and any other sins, but what about the sins that everyone has now? What about the murderers, the shooters, the sinners period? It reads that he got up on the cross, sucked everyones sins and took it with him in his death. It reads that we no longer have sins since he took it with him. I am confused but that doesn't surprise me. I am easily confused. But what about now? Do we still have sins? Will someone have to be crusified in order for our sins to be taken away so we can be cleansed of our sins?

Jesus' death didn't take away our sins. Obviously, we still have sin in the world. Jesus' death commuted the death sentence that our sins brought us. Biblically, sin carries a death sentence. But, "by his death, he destroyed death."

To answer the original question, "what has Jesus done for me today?"
Jesus gives abundant life. Because of his sacrificial act, I can live in freedom from fear of condemnation. I can devote my life to loving others, free from worrying about my own disposition.

 

[Smoke]

It really WAS the world record of suffering...as he took upon himself all the suffering...all the sins...all the worry and burden from everyone. That's the Christian perspective.

I'm not at all sure it is -- at least, not the perspective universal among Christians.

When you say he took upon himself all the suffering, all the sins, all the worry and burden from everyone, what do you mean? Obviously, you don't mean that nobody else sins or suffers, worries or has burdens.

Concerning sin: Did Jesus take the guilt for all sin upon himself? Is Jesus the world's record holder for sin, the world's greatest sinner? Does his suffering relieve everyone else of guilt?

Concerning suffering: Did Jesus experience all the suffering in the world, as some have said? If so, what does that mean? Other people still suffer, so did Jesus' suffering, in effect, double the suffering of the world? Is all the suffering of everybody in the world reproduced in Jesus? What was accomplished by that, if it happened?

And -- most interesting to me -- where does this belief come from?

 

[Squirt]

Same question. Why do you believe that?

First of all, I will readily agree with you that the Bible does not spell out in any degree of detail what His sacrifice involved. Common sense tells me that it involved more than merely dying. Jesus wasn't the only individual on earth who was ever crucified. As horrible a means of death as it undoubtedly was, it was a relatively common way by which criminals (particularly non-Roman criminals) were put to death under Roman rule. Whether Jesus had been crucified or had died of old age, His death was not -- in and of itself -- sufficient to accomplish what His Father required of Him, which was to redeem the souls of the entire human race.

In Isaiah 1:18 we read, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." God requires that we be free from sin in order to enter into His presence. It's not a matter of whether own good deeds ultimately outweigh our bad deeds. Once we have committed even one relatively insignificant sin, we are no longer in a position to be able to stand before Him in innocence. We can and need to repent, but the damage has been done. Our record is no longer clean. The only way we can become perfect again is through the atonement of our Savior.

When we sin, we incur a debt which we are not in a position to be able to repay. The only one good enough to pay the price for our sins was Jesus Christ. Again, from Isaiah, we are told, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem his stricken, smitten of God, and afflicated. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (chapter 53, verses 4-5). Payment for sin always requires recognition of the sin, followed by deep and sincere remorse. It involves the acceptance of guilt and the horrible mental anguish that results from this guilt. Jesus was not only punished for our sins, He assumed our guilt.

When we feel that we aren't worth saving, that we've sunk too low for the Atonement to be of any benefit to us, we underestimate its power. I believe the Savior descended below all things. He knows -- from His own experience -- how it feels to be where we are. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says that "...he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Taking upon Himself the sins of the world was painful. It was more painful than the crucifixion itself.

 

[Smoke]

First of all, I will readily agree with you that the Bible does not spell out in any degree of detail what His sacrifice involved. Common sense tells me that it involved more than merely dying. Jesus wasn't the only individual on earth who was ever crucified. As horrible a means of death as it undoubtedly was, it was a relatively common way by which criminals (particularly non-Roman criminals) were put to death under Roman rule. Whether Jesus had been crucified or had died of old age, His death was not -- in and of itself -- sufficient to accomplish what His Father required of Him, which was to redeem the souls of the entire human race.

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement requires a degree of suffering greater than anything we can imagine, and that although the scriptures don't say so, it's a reasonable thing to believe. Is that correct?

I'm still curious about where the belief came from.

As far as substitutionary atonement is concerned, I have very little patience with that doctrine, and I'm willing to ascribe almost anything to it. But I'm not convinced that this belief -- that Jesus suffered more than anyone ever suffered, and even, as some have said, suffered all the suffering of every person -- is part and parcel of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

 

[Squirt]

If I understand correctly, you're saying that the doctrine of substitutionary atonement requires a degree of suffering greater than anything we can imagine, and that although the scriptures don't say so, it's a reasonable thing to believe. Is that correct?

Yes, I guess that is essentially what I am saying.

I'm still curious about where the belief came from.

From interpretations of the scriptures which ring true to me personally. How can one really elaborate on a belief that comes from a witness received from the Holy Ghost?

As far as substitutionary atonement is concerned, I have very little patience with that doctrine, and I'm willing to ascribe almost anything to it. But I'm not convinced that this belief -- that Jesus suffered more than anyone ever suffered, and even, as some have said, suffered all the suffering of every person -- is part and parcel of the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

That's okay. I never expected you to accept or even understand it.

 

[Smoke]

That's okay. I never expected you to accept or even understand it.

I'm certainly not going to accept it, but I think I can understand it.

I do think that even if one accepted the doctrine of substitutionary atonement, there might be other ways of looking at -- especially since your own belief, as you say, is not found in scripture. Might there not be other people who accept the doctrine but don't find the same implications in it that you do?

 

[sojourner]

First of all, I will readily agree with you that the Bible does not spell out in any degree of detail what His sacrifice involved. Common sense tells me that it involved more than merely dying. Jesus wasn't the only individual on earth who was ever crucified. As horrible a means of death as it undoubtedly was, it was a relatively common way by which criminals (particularly non-Roman criminals) were put to death under Roman rule. Whether Jesus had been crucified or had died of old age, His death was not -- in and of itself -- sufficient to accomplish what His Father required of Him, which was to redeem the souls of the entire human race.

In Isaiah 1:18 we read, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." God requires that we be free from sin in order to enter into His presence. It's not a matter of whether own good deeds ultimately outweigh our bad deeds. Once we have committed even one relatively insignificant sin, we are no longer in a position to be able to stand before Him in innocence. We can and need to repent, but the damage has been done. Our record is no longer clean. The only way we can become perfect again is through the atonement of our Savior.

When we sin, we incur a debt which we are not in a position to be able to repay. The only one good enough to pay the price for our sins was Jesus Christ. Again, from Isaiah, we are told, "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem his stricken, smitten of God, and afflicated. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." (chapter 53, verses 4-5). Payment for sin always requires recognition of the sin, followed by deep and sincere remorse. It involves the acceptance of guilt and the horrible mental anguish that results from this guilt. Jesus was not only punished for our sins, He assumed our guilt.

When we feel that we aren't worth saving, that we've sunk too low for the Atonement to be of any benefit to us, we underestimate its power. I believe the Savior descended below all things. He knows -- from His own experience -- how it feels to be where we are. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says that "...he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Taking upon Himself the sins of the world was painful. It was more painful than the crucifixion itself.

I agree with your statements here, for the most part. I would clarify what I believe about what you said thusly: Christ's atonement does not make us perfect, it makes us forgiven. And in this forgiven state, we are able to stand before God.

I think the reason why Christ's death atoned for our sin is basically twofold: Christ's death was a self-sacrificial act of love. In fact, the greatest act of love ever done. Love conquers all things, even the sting of death.

Second, while maybe it wasn't particularly the physical agony that was any worse than any other earthly suffering, I think it was the spiritual anguish that was the worst. First, At one point, God had forsaken Jesus. Jesus knew what no none else has ever really known: What it means to be completely bereft of Spirit. Second, Jesus took upon himself the sin of the whole world -- not just one person's sin. These two spiritual agonies were far, far worse than any other human being has experienced.