Subjectivism vs Objectivism

[Brien]

This may not fit here but the reasons that I am posting with the religious debates (even though they are not religions) are:
1.) your views on this matter largely determine the religion you choose
2.) I would think of it as more of a debate
3.) ... and also because no one ever reads the philosophy board.
If I am wrong I would be grateful for the admin to move it to a proper place.

From my experiences on this board it seems there are quite a few subjectivists here. But if you don't know exactly what it is, here is a definition I found. Please let me know if you disagree with the definition.

Subjectivism is an epistemological theory. It is a theory of knowledge, and how it is achieved. Subjectivism holds that knowledge is generated from the mind, without reference to reality. It holds that gaining knowledge about the world is done through introspection. It holds that metaphysically, the world is a figment of our imaginations. It holds that because reality is an aspect of our minds, it is affected by them.

Objectivism is a worldview that has most of its roots in the works of Aristotle. According to Ayn Rand, the essentials of objectivism are:

Metaphysics: Objective Reality
Epistemology: Reason
Ethics: Self-interest
Politics: Capitalism

This is an abridged description of some of these concepts.

Metaphysics
“Reality, the external world, exists independent of man’s consciousness, independent of any observer’s knowledge, beliefs, feelings, desires or fears. This means that A is A, that facts are facts, that things are what they are — and that the task of man’s consciousness is to perceive reality, not to create or invent it.” [...]

Epistemology
“Man’s reason is fully competent to know the facts of reality. Reason, the conceptual faculty, is the faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses. Reason is man’s only means of acquiring knowledge.” [...]

Human Nature
Man is a rational being. Reason, as man’s only means of knowledge, is his basic means of survival. But the exercise of reason depends on each individual’s choice. “Man is a being of volitional consciousness.” [...]

Let me know what you think about these two views. I look forward to reading your responses.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I posted this in the philosophy section, in response to your post there (maybe we need to have Rex combine the threads):

Objectivism (metaphysically speaking) is the belief that reality exists outside of one's perception or conciousness. Objectivism says that if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, it still makes a crashing sound.

Subjectivism (metaphysically speaking) is the belief that reality only exists within the confines of perception. In other words, for someone that subscribes to Subjectivism, the tree makes no sound, since no one hears it.

Objectivism (philosophically speaking) was essentially put forth by Ayn Rand: "My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute." This is the primary theme of Rand's Objectivist philosophy, that there is an inherent sanctity of the individual person.

Personally, I am an Agnostic (believing that with no Empirical knowledge, the existence of God cannot be known) since I don't believe in "revealed" faith or knowledge. Ergo, I tend to align fairly closely with Objectivism as we have both defined it, with the exception that I would not say that my ethics are driven by self-interest (well, not completely).

 

[Master Vigil]

I believe that an objective world exists. And it holds complete truth, however. Since no two people percieve this objective world in the same way, the truth and the world then becomes subjective to each persons perception. This is the difference between reality and perception. Reality exists by itself and needs no external being to define it. Yet, our perception of that reality exists solely within our minds and our ability to perceive it. Make no mistake, some things in reality are known more than others. For instance, when everyone wakes up in the morning, we all know that the floor is going to hold us. But things like, morality, good, evil, things like that. I feel are very subjective.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Master Vigil,

I agree that reality is subject to each individual's interpretation of it. A person with dyslexia certainly has a different view of reality than a person that does not have this condition. That said, people can (and do) use twisted logic or religious faith to intentionally distort their world view, allowing them to justify actions that would otherwise be condemned by most rational people. I guess that I am saying that morality, good, and evil are more common ground than most would admit, but are intentionally argued by some to justify actions. Of these, morality would definitely have to be the single most open to subjectivism.

Vigil wrote - "Reality exists by itself and needs no external being to define it. Yet, our perception of that reality exists solely within our minds and our ability to perceive it. "
This argument is well covered by Bertrand Russell in his early writings. This is almost exactly his argument (he uses the analogy of the description of a table top) about the impact of perception on objectivism (although he didn't use the phrase objectivism).

On a side note, I like many of your arguments Vigil (although I don't always agree with some of them - probably 90% agreement). I just wanted to let you know that I'm keeping an eye on you!

 

[tigrers99]

I've heard that argument; "From where I sit, the pencil is to the right. From where you sit across from me, the pencil is to the left." With this, it is argued that right is wrong and wrong is right, depending at how you view morality.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I've heard that argument; "From where I sit, the pencil is to the right. From where you sit across from me, the pencil is to the left." With this, it is argued that right is wrong and wrong is right, depending at how you view morality.

I don't know Tigrer (is that a misspelling or is that intentional?), I think this is where some people make the intentional leap into twisting something to justify their position. One may honestly differ on what is morally right, but what is right is always right, and wrong is always wrong.

 

[Runt]

I think that there is an objective world. However, I think our perception of this objective world is subjective. Sometimes, our subjective perception may bring us to correct conclusions about this objective world, but our perception is still overall subjective.

Why? Our sensory perception is limited. We place more importance on that which is immediately a part of our world (colors we can see, sounds we can hear, things we can taste or smell, things we can feel) than on that which we are not able to perceive on an everyday basis with our normal, limited facilities. Furthermore, although we have the ability to know and detect certain things beyond our normal sensory perception (ultra violet light, sounds too low or high to hear), they are not a part of our perception of reality until our attention comes to them.

Our immediate perception of reality is completely based on the idea of interest or importance. Every moment our mind is being bombarded by billions of pieces of sensory data. We cannot simultaneously assimilate it all (we'd go crazy), so we choose what pieces to perceive based on their interest or importance, thus taking a small perceptage of the reality we are able to perceive and using that to build our personal vision of reality. For example, if you have a desktop full of junk before you (as I do), chances are you won't be aware of the presense of half the things right there before you until you LOOK, until it comes to your attention.

 

[trishtrish10]

reality is existence of thought, person and creation. no one but God can see everything at once. he knows your innermost thoughts, what u will choose to do or think. he made us. that is how divine he is. if any one has some extra cash send it to me. i need it. i'm disabled. my email address is [email protected]