Stretching the meaning of the word “instantly” and JWs

[danieldemol]

‘Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them . . . and they will by no means escape.”—1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3; Luke 21:34, 35.

...An evidence of this is the proclamation by the United Nations of 1986 as the ‘international year of peace and security.’ 1

1 When Will the Foretold World Destruction Come? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

So to summarise, Paul says when “they” are saying “peace” destruction will be “instantly” upon them.

The U.N. proclaimed the year of peace in 1986.

There hasn’t been a world war since 1945

The year is now 2020, 34 years since the U.N. proclamation.

How on earth can “instantly” possibly take over 34 years, we may as well start saying grass grows instantly, or people grow instantly.

Surely to anyone who values the meaning of words this is clearly just another failed prophecy by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[Deeje]

‘Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them . . . and they will by no means escape.”—1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3; Luke 21:34, 35.

...An evidence of this is the proclamation by the United Nations of 1986 as the ‘international year of peace and security.’ 1

1 When Will the Foretold World Destruction Come? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

So to summarise, Paul says when “they” are saying “peace” destruction will be “instantly” upon them.

The U.N. proclaimed the year of peace in 1986.

There hasn’t been a world war since 1945

The year is now 2020, 34 years since the U.N. proclamation.

How on earth can “instantly” possibly take over 34 years, we may as well start saying grass grows instantly, or people grow instantly.

Surely to anyone who values the meaning of words this is clearly just another failed prophecy by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

There is a specific proclamation that has not yet been made.....its coming...wait for it. We are.

 

[danieldemol]

There is a specific proclamation that has not yet been made.....its coming...wait for it. We are.

Not really, the words of the prophecy say when they proclaim “peace and security” as you can see they already proclaimed it in 1986 as the WTOL says

 

[Deeje]

Not really, the words of the prophecy say when they proclaim “peace and security” as you can see they already proclaimed it in 1986 as the WTOL says

This is no empty proclamation but something that is offered to humanity as a global solution to all our problems.....wait for it...its coming.

The book of Revelation discloses an EIGHTH WORLD POWER that is yet to take control of earth's governance. We are currently under the rule of the seventh world power.

"Revelation 17:9-11 informs us of what the apostle John was told in his vision of a wild beast, scarlet in color, having seven heads and ten horns, and being ridden by the religious harlot, “Babylon the Great.” The verses say: “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.”

In the apostle John’s day, in the first century, the Sixth World Power was holding him as a prisoner on the penal island of Patmos. The Seventh World Power had not yet arrived, for history verifies that it arrived first in the eighteenth century, when Great Britain became the commercial and naval mistress of the seas. So this Seventh World Power is just more than two centuries old today, and this is a “short while” in comparison with the nearly eighteen centuries of domination by the Sixth World Power. So the seventh head of the scarlet-colored wild beast represented this Seventh World Power; the other heads represent the preceding six world powers, the Egyptian, the Assyrian, the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Grecian and the Roman. All these seven world powers have had relations with the religious harlot, “Babylon the Great,” who is the world empire of false religion.—Revelation 17:1-6, 18."
Completion of the Foretold “Sign” Nears — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The eighth King of Revelation has yet to begin his rule. The cry of "peace and security" will probably come from this source.

 

[danieldemol]

... All these seven world powers have had relations with the religious harlot, “Babylon the Great,” who is the world empire of false religion.—Revelation 17:1-6, 18."
Completion of the Foretold “Sign” Nears — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The eighth King of Revelation has yet to begin his rule. The cry of "peace and security" will probably come from this source.

I feel like you are covering up one failed prophecy by tacking on another one here.

The U.N. is not an empire, and it’s Secretary General is not a king. If that prophecy was talking about an eighth empire (that hasn’t even begun unlike the U.N. which began in 1945) then mentioning of the U.N. had nothing to do with it.

The prophecy clearly tried to portray the U.N. as being the one to receive “instant” destruction “whenever” they say “peace and security”

 

[Deeje]

I feel like you are covering up one failed prophecy by tacking on another one here.

The U.N. is not an empire, and it’s Secretary General is not a king. If that prophecy was talking about an eighth empire (that hasn’t even begun unlike the U.N. which began in 1945) then mentioning of the U.N. had nothing to do with it.

The prophecy clearly tried to portray the U.N. as being the one to receive “instant” destruction “whenever” they say “peace and security”

You can believe whatever you wish....we are seeing the end times unfolding right before our eyes, but this cry of peace and security is specific.....you'll see what it means by "sudden destruction" being instantly upon them like labor pains in a pregnant woman. I have had those and I know what it means....when its time....its time.

 

[Deeje]

The UN has been a toothless tiger in all of its existence.....but in this instance all the world governments give it 'teeth' and power to rule over the whole world. This "new world order" has been on the UN's agenda for decades....(look up Agenda 21) it was just waiting for the right time and the right technology to implement it. People are not going to know what hit them....

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Most end-times signs are self-fulfilling prophecies:

 

[stvdv]

‘Whenever it is that they are saying: ‘Peace and security!’ then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them . . . and they will by no means escape.”—1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3; Luke 21:34, 35.

How on earth can “instantly” possibly take over 34 years, we may as well start saying grass grows instantly, or people grow instantly.

When I read these verses, it seems to me "destruction" means "without Love/God". Security comes out of Fear; that's not Peace.

 

[LightofTruth]

This is no empty proclamation but something that is offered to humanity as a global solution to all our problems.....wait for it...its coming.

The book of Revelation discloses an EIGHTH WORLD POWER that is yet to take control of earth's governance. We are currently under the rule of the seventh world power.

"Revelation 17:9-11 informs us of what the apostle John was told in his vision of a wild beast, scarlet in color, having seven heads and ten horns, and being ridden by the religious harlot, “Babylon the Great.” The verses say: “Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while. And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also itself an eighth king, but springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.”

In the apostle John’s day, in the first century, the Sixth World Power was holding him as a prisoner on the penal island of Patmos. The Seventh World Power had not yet arrived, for history verifies that it arrived first in the eighteenth century, when Great Britain became the commercial and naval mistress of the seas. So this Seventh World Power is just more than two centuries old today, and this is a “short while” in comparison with the nearly eighteen centuries of domination by the Sixth World Power. So the seventh head of the scarlet-colored wild beast represented this Seventh World Power; the other heads represent the preceding six world powers, the Egyptian, the Assyrian, the Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Grecian and the Roman. All these seven world powers have had relations with the religious harlot, “Babylon the Great,” who is the world empire of false religion.—Revelation 17:1-6, 18."
Completion of the Foretold “Sign” Nears — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

The eighth King of Revelation has yet to begin his rule. The cry of "peace and security" will probably come from this source.

Babylon the Great is NOT "the world empire of false religion."

Again the JW's change the meaning of words to suit their own ideas.

Babylon is called a CITY. The word in Greek is πόλις polis. And that word NEVER refers to a world empire or to false religion.

Babylon the Great is a CITY.......Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a CITY (πόλις polis) in the Middle East, located on a plateau in the Judaean Mountains ...

 

[Harel13]

Again the JW's change the meaning of words to suit their own ideas.

Couldn't it be argued that every religion does this?

 

[LightofTruth]

Couldn't it be argued that every religion does this?

It's my understanding that we are to learn from what words mean and not to change their meaning to suit our own ideas. If you change the meaning of a word you make it a lie.

To say that the word CITY means EMPIRE then you've changed the meaning of the word and therefore make what is truly meant to be a lie.

Many religions take liberty with words and change their meaning. It's a good way to spot false ideas.

 

[LightofTruth]

It's my understanding that we are to learn from what words mean and not to change their meaning to suit our own ideas. If you change the meaning of a word you make it a lie.

To say that the word CITY means EMPIRE then you've changed the meaning of the word and therefore make what is truly meant to be a lie.

Many religions take liberty with words and change their meaning. It's a good way to spot false ideas.

One might say that I've changed the word Babylon to mean Jerusalem and therefore changed the meaning of the word.
Not so, because Babylon in Revelation is referred to as a woman who is a harlot and drunk with the blood of the saints, prophets and the martyrs of Jesus.
And Jesus says that that CITY is Jerusalem. Luke 13:34

 

[Deeje]

Babylon the Great is NOT "the world empire of false religion."

Again the JW's change the meaning of words to suit their own ideas.

And you say that with such authority.....LOL
You don’t change the meaning of scripture to suit your own ideas by any chance?

This “city” has “a kingdom over the kings of the earth” (Revelation 17:18) .....how can this be Jerusalem?

Who has had a ‘kingdom over the kings of the earth’ all through history? False religion......every king consulted their priests and religious advisors before they took action....Rulers did the same with the Catholic Church. She is more interested in being “friends with the world” than being friends with God and being obedient to his Christ. (James 4:4)

Babylon is called a CITY. The word in Greek is πόλις polis. And that word NEVER refers to a world empire or to false religion.

Babylon the Great is a CITY.......Jerusalem. Jerusalem is a CITY (πόλις polis) in the Middle East, located on a plateau in the Judaean Mountains ...

Babylon the Great is described as “a woman arrayed in purple and scarlet, richly adorned, and sitting upon a scarlet-colored wild beast having seven heads and ten horns”. Upon her forehead a name is written, “a mystery: ‘Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth.’” She is also depicted as sitting on “many waters” representing “peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.” (Revelation 17:1-15)

“Babylon the great” has daughters.....disgusting replicas of herself, holding the same beliefs under different banners.

“Babylon the great” (or “the greater Babylon”) can only be understood in the light of her namesake. Original Babylon was the springboard for all the world’s false religious beliefs. The Tower of Babel symbolised mankind’s rebellion against the true God and the development of false worship under the influence of the first rebel after the flood....Nimrod, who was deified by his mother Semiramis. (Nimrod is still worshipped in northern hemisphere religions and his mother is still venerated as “the mother of God” in Catholicism. She was prefigured by the ancient goddesses who were venerated in “mother worship”)

When God confused their language at Babel, he forced them to scatter abroad in the earth, and they took their false religious beliefs with them. This is why we see a common thread running through all of them....belief in life after death, an immortal soul, a multiplicity of gods and a burning hell of torment. None of which are in the Bible, but seen in Christendom’s beliefs.

So “Babylon the great” is not Jerusalem, who has never held power over any other kingdoms (she herself has been dominated by other nations since the rule of the last king, Zedekiah).....”Babylon the great” is the devil’s world empire of false religion, set up in opposition to the worship of the true God.

Your version does not stand up to scrutiny....sorry.

 

[LightofTruth]

And you say that with such authority.....LOL
You don’t change the meaning of scripture to suit your own ideas by any chance?

This “city” has “a kingdom over the kings of the earth” (Revelation 17:18) .....how can this be Jerusalem?

Quite frankly, NO, I do not change the meaning of the words of Scripture.

Babylon the great is called a CITY. The word CITY in Scripture always refers to a specific CITY and never refers to an empire or false religion as the JW's say.

So, which CITY is referred to as Babylon the great?

 

[Deeje]

So, which CITY is referred to as Babylon the great?

Fully explained in my last reply. Original Babylon was a city....it’s namesake is a “greater” version of the original....hence the name.
It’s got nothing to do with Jerusalem.

 

[LightofTruth]

Fully explained in my last reply. Original Babylon was a city....it’s namesake is a “greater” version of the original....hence the name.
It’s got nothing to do with Jerusalem.

In case you missed it, the ENTIRE Bible is about the Jewish people. It's about what has befell them in the past and what is to befall them in the future.

Original Babylon was a city and the "greater" version yet to come is still a CITY. Not a world empire of false religion!

Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

 

[Deeje]

In case you missed it, the ENTIRE Bible is about the Jewish people. It's about what has befell them in the past and what is to befall them in the future.

Actually a good bit of it is all about what happened before the Jews became a nation......in case you missed that.

Jesus also declared that the literal Jewish nation had been abandoned due to the fact that they had broken their covenant with God so many times. After he had produced the Messiah, God cut off those dead branches and chose a new nation made up of those Jews who recognized Jesus as Messiah, and also the Gentiles whom God grafted in whilst cutting off the unproductive branches of the vine. Paul called these Christians "the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:16) This was 'spiritual' Israel, not literal Israel.
John the Baptist said of the Pharisees....
“You offspring of vipers, who has warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Therefore, produce fruit that befits repentance. 9 Do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children for Abraham from these stones. 10 The ax is already lying at the root of the trees. Every tree, then, that does not produce fine fruit is to be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Relying on their Jewish nationality did them no good. The axe was already at the root of the trees. (Read Matthew 23)

John 15:1-6...Jesus said...
"I am the true vine, and my Father is the cultivator. 2 He takes away every branch in me not bearing fruit, and he cleans every one bearing fruit, so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me. 5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all. 6 If anyone does not remain in union with me, he is thrown out like a branch and dries up. And men gather those branches and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

The Jews are no longer God's people because they could never follow his commandments....and they never accepted his Messiah, instead, doing to him what they had done to God's prophets in the past...they silenced him. (Matthew 23:37-39)

Rev_14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Since when do cities commit fornication?

Revelation 17 begins with a declaration......"One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me: “Come, I will show you the judgment on the great prostitute who sits on many waters, 2 with whom the kings of the earth committed sexual immorality, and earth’s inhabitants were made drunk with the wine of her sexual immorality."

Revelation 17:3-6...
John saw this woman "sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns. 4 The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and she was adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, and she had in her hand a golden cup that was full of disgusting things and the unclean things of her sexual immorality. 5 On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.” 6 And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."

What "beast" has Jerusalem ever ridden? What is the "sexual immorality" committed by her, and how is she "the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth"? What are the "many waters" upon which she sits? John answers....

Revelation 17:15-18...
"He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues. 16 And the ten horns that you saw and the wild beast, these will hate the prostitute and will make her devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished. 18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

Since when has Jerusalem had a "kingdom over the kings of the earth" holding any kind of authority over "peoples, crowds, nations and tongues"? The Jews have been dominated by Gentile nations since the days of Zedekiah. She exercised no power over anyone.

Jerusalem does not fit the profile. You are barking up the wrong tree IMO....

 

[LightofTruth]

Since when do cities commit fornication?

What, are you serious?

Eze 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 16:2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

Eze 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.

You really don't know the prophecies which speak of Jerusalem in the latter days, do you? I think not.

 

[LightofTruth]

What "beast" has Jerusalem ever ridden?

The Revelation is of things yet to come.