Star of Bethlehem or Star of Nazareth

[The Anointed]

OK....Where in your Bible does it say they didn't? All mention of the goings on were in Bethlehem......read Matthew ch 2.

V 4-5..."Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea"

V 7-8..." Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.”

V 16..." Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi."

Looks like Bethlehem to me.....

Then we have....V 19-23....

" But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.” 21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth."

Looks like they didn't move to Nazareth until after their return from Egypt.



Why does Luke 2:39 read as if Joseph took the family right from Jerusalem to Nazareth without going back to Bethlehem?

It appears that Luke simply omits the intervening events (the return from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, the magi's visit and the flight to Egypt), even as Matthew says nothing of the shepherds or the trip to Jerusalem where Simeon and Anna saw Jesus. Certainly the astrologers did not visit Jesus in Nazareth, for Matthew says otherwise; and in Nazareth Jesus would not have been endangered by an order to kill children in ‘Bethlehem and its districts.’



Perhaps Strongs will clear this up? Two words "Stood" and "over"

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

Genesis 1:1 (NASB)

V 9..."After hearing the king, they went their way; and the star, which they had seen in the east, went on before them until it came and stood over the place where the Child was."

"Stood over" means to come to a stop over the house where Jesus was. Nothing more cryptic than that as far as I can see.



Sorry, nothing to do with hairy comets.

Deeje wtote……..OK....Where in your Bible does it say they didn't? All mention of the goings on were in Bethlehem......read Matthew ch 2.

The Anointed………. OK! Read it. Matthew 2 speaks of the wise men who had seen the star that had heralded the birth of Jesus while in the east, some two years previously, that is why Herod chose two years and below as the age of the innocents who were to be butchered.

How long did it take them to travel from Mesopotamia to Jerusalem? The only help that we receive from the Bible is found in Ezra 7: 8-9; "They (Ezra and his group) left Babylonia on the first day of the first month, and with God’s help they arrived in Jerusalem on the first day of the fifth month."

Four months, it took them to travel to Jerusalem. Even if we halve that time there is no possible way that the wise men could have seen the baby Jesus in the manger in Bethlehem of Judaea, as according to Luke, the family had returned to Nazareth 2 months after the birth of the child.

Deeje wrote……….V 4-5..."Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. 5 They said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea"

The Anointed……….Correct! It was prophesied that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem of Judea and he was.

Deeje wrote………V 7-8..." Then Herod secretly called the magi and determined from them the exact time the star appeared.

The Anointed…….. Correct! And he was later to choose the age of the innocent to be slaughtered as two years and below. This was done in accordance with, what he had learned from the visitors about the time the star had appeared.

Deeje wrote……..8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, “Go and search carefully for the Child; and when you have found Him, report to me, so that I too may come and worship Him.”

The Anointed……… He did tell them to go to Bethlehem. But according to Luke, the family had returned to Nazareth long before the wise men even came to Jerusalem. Luke 2: 22; “The time came for Joseph and Mary to perform the ceremony of purification as the Law of Moses commanded.

How do we know, even though it is not mentioned in Luke, that it was thirty-three days after the circumcision that the ceremony of purification was performed? Because Luke says, "And when the days of her purification ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF MOSES were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord.

According to scripture, the child was taken to the temple in Jerusalem for the ceremony of purification at the correct time demanded by the law of Moses, which was 41 days after the birth, immediately after which, the family returned to their home in Nazareth.

To find out when the days of her purification according to the Law of Moses were accomplished, we simply turn to Leviticus 12: 3-4; and let the Bible reveal itself to us: (3) On the eighth day the child shall be circumcised. (4) Then it shall be 33 more days until she is ritually clean from her loss of blood; etc.

Deeje weote………. V 16..." Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi."

Looks like Bethlehem to me.....

The Anointed……… which Bethlehem are you referring to? The Bethlehem in southern Judea where Jesus was born, or the Bethlehem, which was only about two mile from the small hamlet of Nazareth, which town today is called Beitlahm.

Deeje wrote.........Then we have....V 19-23....

" But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, and said, 20 “Get up, take the Child and His mother, and go into the land of Israel; for those who sought the Child’s life are dead.” 21 So Joseph got up, took the Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea in place of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. Then after being warned by God in a dream, he left for the regions of Galilee, 23 and came and lived in a city called Nazareth."

Looks like they didn't move to Nazareth until after their return from Egypt.

The Anointed………. Luke 1: 26-27; In the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David.
The virgin's name was Mary.

Mary lived in Nazareth before she fell pregnant.

Luke 2: Joseph took Mary to whom he was engaged, from Nazareth to Bethlehem of Judea, where she gave birth to Jesus, It seems that Joseph must have lived in Nazareth or the nearby town of Bethlehem/Beitlahm.

Looks like they lived in Nazareth before they were married.

To be continued.

 

[The Anointed]

Note that were the photographer a thousand miles from the site, in any direction, the comet would have been on the same heading.

Were you walking toward a small hamlet and directly behind that hamlet the Hairy Star/comet was low to the horizon with its tail streaming up into the heavens, to you it would be pointing to that hamlet.

 

[Valjean]

Note that were the photographer a thousand miles from the site, in any direction, the comet would have been on the same heading.

See, now that sort of "star" would have worked, but it still wants evidence.

 

[The Anointed]

See, now that sort of "star" would have worked, but it still wants evidence.

If the bible says it happened, that's good enough for me. We have seen and photographed comets standing over many earthly objects, there are even photos of a comet standing over Stone-Henge.

 

[Valjean]

Were you walking toward a small hamlet and directly behind that hamlet the Hairy Star/comet was low to the horizon with its tail streaming up into the heavens, to you it would be pointing to that hamlet.

It would also be pointing to a hamlet a thousand miles to the north or South, depending on your starting point.
It would also be pointing to a hamlet ten, a hundred, and a thousand miles farther past "that hamlet."

A real indicator would have appeared to change direction if you walked in a circle around the Inn.

 

[Valjean]

If the bible says it happened, that's good enough for me. We have seen and photographed comets standing over many earthly objects, there are even photos of a comet standing over Stone-Henge.

You can get a comet to appear to hover over anything if you position yourself right.

"The bible says it happened..." And what makes the Bible more authoritative than the Quran, the Popol Vuh or the Chronicles of Narnia?

 

[The Anointed]

Continued from my last post to Deeje.

The Anointed said: ↑

who was born in a manger in Bethlehem, was circumcised 8 days after he was born then 33 days later Mary took him to the temple in Jerusalem in order to perform the ceremony of purification according to the law of Moses then after Joseph and Mary had finished doing all that was required by the law of the Lord they returned to their home in Nazareth.

Deeje wrote……..Why does Luke 2:39 read as if Joseph took the family right from Jerusalem to Nazareth without going back to Bethlehem?

The Anointed……… which he did. Nowhere does it say in the scriptures that they returned to Bethlehem of Judea.

Deeje wrote……….. It appears that Luke simply omits the intervening events (the return from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, the magi's visit and the flight to Egypt),

The Anointed……. There WAS no return to Bethlehem. After the ceremony of purification had been performed in Jerusalem, the holy family returned to their home in Nazareth .

Deeje wrote…….. even as Matthew says nothing of the shepherds or the trip to Jerusalem where Simeon and Anna saw Jesus.

The Anointed…….. Why would he? Matthew was more concerned with the wise men who had seen the star that had heralded the birth of Jesus almost two years before they came to Jerusalem. Matthew, Mark nor John, make mention of the time that the 12 year old Jesus confounded the scribes in the temple with his knowledge of the scriptures. Does that mean that Luke lied?

Deeje wrote……… Certainly the astrologers did not visit Jesus in Nazareth, for Matthew says otherwise;

The Anointed……… All that Matthew says about the astrologers, is that they had seen the star that had heralded the birth of Jesus almost 2 years before the came to Jerusalem, and that Herod had asked his priests, where the Messiah was supposed to be born and he advised them to go there, ‘to Bethlehem of Judea.’

But Luke reveals that the family had returned to Nazareth immediately after performing the ceremony of purification some 41 days after the birth of Jesus. And that after they had left the palace of Herod, the star appeared once again and O what Joy was theirs, and by following in the direction of that Hairy Star, it led them to the ‘HOUSE’ (Not the manger in Bethlehem) but the ‘HOUSE,’ where Mary then lived with her child , who would have been over twelve months old.

Deeje wrote………. in Nazareth Jesus would not have been endangered by an order to kill children in ‘Bethlehem and its districts.’

The Anointed………… That night, after paying homage to the child Jesus in the HOUSE in which the family then lived, the wise men, who would presumably have travelled to Jerusalem across the Kings Highway, were warned in a dream not to reveal to Herod the child’s whereabouts, and they returned home by a different route from which they had come, which would, more than likely, have been up through the northern route of Damascus, and Joseph was also warned to get out of bed immediately and take the child and his mother and flee into Egypt.

Herod’s secret police had eyes and ears throughout the entire land, and when he realised that he had been tricked and the wise men were not going to return and reveal the child’s location as promised, he was furious and gave the order to kill all the male children in the district that Herod's spies had confirmed that the wise men with their entourage had travelled to, which was around Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below according to the time that he learned from the wise men about when they had first sighted the star that had heralded the birth of the promised king and savour.

According to Josephus the historian, Sepphoris, which is only about 4 miles from Bethlehem of Galilee, which town is now called Beitlahm, and a few kilometres from Nazareth, had a population of around thirty thousand and he called it, "The Ornament of Galilee."

Around the time of Herod’s death in the spring of 4BC, 2 years after the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C., and just after he had ordered the slaughter of the innocents around the district of Bethlehem of Galilee, who were two years and below, according to the time that the wise men had seen the heavenly sign that had heralded the birth of Jesus in 6 B.C. there were riots among the peasants of the area in Galilee of which Sepphoris was the centre. Judas, the son of Hezekias attacked the arsenal of Herod in the city of Sepphoris in order to arm the peasants.

The Romans under Quintillius Varus of Syria, attacked and burnt the city, putting down the uprising in which many families died and were crucified, others were taken prisoner and transported to Rome, where they were sold as slaves. But Joseph, with his wife and her child had escaped the slaughter by fleeing into Egypt.

After a failed suicide attempt, which I believe may have been an option given to him by Caesar Augustus, in the spring of 4 BC, Herod the Great died, then in the spring of 3 B.C., after the death of Herod his father, when Antipas returned from Rome where his father’s will had been ratified by Augustus, he chose and rebuilt the magnificent city of Sepphoris as his capital city for ruling over Galilee.

The cruel and depraved Archelaus was given the southern land of Judea, before he was banished and a Roman procurator was sent to rule southern Judea.

 

[Deeje]

What is the point of the OP and seriously, what does it matter?

The magi were not sent by God nor was the star. They were used as dupes by the devil using spiritistic means to alert a murderous King in order to have the Messiah killed before he even had a chance to grow up.

The star and the magi's visit to Jerusalem were the reason why Herod killed all those babies.

Read the account and realise that Christmas is as pagan as those astrologers.

 

[The Anointed]

The greater majority of so called Christian churches are the denominational daughters of the Roman church of Constantine and were spawned from her lying spirit/words/teachings;

Constantine appointed his mother Helena as Augusta, and gave her unlimited access to the imperial treasury in order to locate the relics of early Judeo-Christian times.

Both Hellena and her son Constantine are saints in the Roman Catholic church, and their saint Helena is called, “The equal of the Apostles.” Over three hundred years after Jesus, Constantine appointed his mother Helena as Augusta, and gave her unlimited access to the imperial treasury in order to locate the relics of early Judeo-Christian times.

The Church of the Nativity is the oldest Church in the Holy Land still in use. The first Church was built over the Grotto of the Nativity in the 4th century A.D under the patronage of the Roman Emperor Constantine’s mother Helena.

The tradition of the church of Constantine teaches as biblical truth, that the Milk Grotto, a short distance from the church of the nativity, is where Mary was supposed to have hid after the wise men who had paid homage to her child in the manger in Bethlehem and had returned to their own country, and while Herod’s solders were slaughtering the innocents in the streets of Bethlehem of Judaea, Mary was supposed to have suckled the baby Jesus to keep it quite, before her escape to Egypt.

According to the traditions of the Church of Constantine, Mary and her child rested in a cave, called the Milk Grotto (la Gruta de la Leche), near the place where today stands the Church of the Nativity (la Iglesia de la Natividad). There, (Or so it is said) their supposed Virgin Mary breastfed the child. A drop of milk fell on a stone of the cave, and the stone turned white. During the early centuries, this white rock, diluted in water, took the appearance of milk and was used as a religious relic.

Both Christians and Muslims believe scrapings from the stones in the grotto boost the quantity of a mother’s milk and enhance fertility. Mothers usually mix it in their drinking water; would-be mothers place the MAGICAL rock under their mattress.

There is also an old tradition that identifies this as the burial site of the young victims of Herod’s Slaughter of the Innocents. There is a chapel dedicated to them in the caves beneath the Church of St. Catherine.

Anyone who believes that rubbish, has never read the bible.

This is in total contradiction to the truth as revealed in God’s word. But if they, who believe the unbiblical teaching of the bride of the anti-christ, that a mortal virgin conceived in her womb the son of an alien life form that pre-dated the creation of the cosmos, and the human like body of the son of that alien, which was forming in the womb of their so-called virgin, was actually an eternal and immortal god, who himself was the co-creator of the cosmos, then they will believe anything that she is prepared to dish out for them.

 

[The Anointed]

Well I have been down the frog and toad (The FN road) to the house of hell (The Hotel) For a Bogin Stink (A Drink) now I am heading back to Rome (Home) to drop the lead (The Head) into the weeping willow (The Pillow) and plow the deep (Go to sleep), "Aussie slang." Good night all.

 

[Twilight Hue]

View attachment 26349

On leaving the palace of Herod the Great in Jerusalem, the star appeared once again, but it was in the north west of Jerusalem, in which direction the wise men followed.

We can almost picture the scene, the wise men with their entourage travelling along the dusty roads of northern Israel, it’s late in the day and as they come to a rise, there, just above the distant horizon, in the deepening darkness of the evening sky, is the star with its tail streaming up into the heavens and appearing to stand over the small and insignificant hamlet of "Nazareth," as it slowly followed the setting sun toward the horizon..

It's just a direction you're facing there's no real points whatsoever.

How in the world would you be able to triangulate a specific spot? Just because the comet looks like it's above something it's therefor triangulated?


In reality that would "point" to whatever terrain and objects you pass through in a straight line and if you were at Nazareth, it would be "pointing" at something else in the far horizon while facing the comet.


I can't help but imagine if once in Nazareth, someone put up a sign post that said, "Attention Wise Men, Jesus is this way --->. Do not follow this Comet pass this point. Don't ask how I determined that the comet meant Nazareth, I am not allowed to say as it's an ancient middle-eastern secret".

 

[The Anointed]

It's just a direction you're facing there's no real points whatsoever.

How in the world would you be able to triangulate a specific spot? Just because the comet looks like it's above something it's therefor triangulated?


In reality that would "point" to whatever terrain and objects you pass through in a straight line and if you were at Nazareth, it would be "pointing" at something else in the far horizon while facing the comet.


I can't help but imagine if once in Nazareth, someone put up a sign post that said, "Attention Wise Men, Jesus is this way --->. Do not follow this Comet pass this point. Don't ask how I determined that the comet meant Nazareth, I am not allowed to say as it's an ancient middle-eastern secret".

If you were the wise men, who are believed to have been Astrologer/Astronomers from Persia, and who believed the star to be that of the promised Jewish Messiah, and had followed the comet that you saw when it rose in the east and each night over the period of a couple of months, it appeared in a slightly different position in the night sky, and you followed it from Persia to Israel, before loosing sight of it owing to a full moon, dust storm or some other reason.

Then later on as the sky darkened on a clear night, you saw that same comet way up in the north west, each night getting lower and lower to the horizon and you followed in the direction that the comet was descending, until finally you came to a small hamlet or even a property homestead named Nazareth, as there appears to have been no town by that name in those days when Jesus was born, and you saw the comet directly behind that group of houses, with its tail streaming up into the heavens, on the night before it sank below the horizon to be seen no more in the northern hemisphere, you would know that your journey had been completed and that the Hairy star had led you to the HOUSE where the promised Messiah lived with his mother Mary and step father Joseph the son of Jacob.

Historians estimate that there were about 6-7 million Jews living in the Roman Empire, plus another 1 million in Persia. These would have been the Jewish families who had married Persian women during their exile in that land.

 

[The Anointed]

As it was prophesied, that a heavenly event would herald the birth of the promised Messiah, we must ask if there was any significant heavenly event in 6 BC.

"Astronomy, Astrology, and the Star of Bethlehem." BY John Clevenger of the Lake Country Astronomical Society," which says as follows, "Did any unusual astronomical phenomenon occur between 8 and 2 BC? As it happens there were several notable celestial events during that period. The Chinese reported two comets during that time. The comet of 5 BC which was visible for 70 days, was reported to have a tail. Professor Humphreys of Cambridge University believes that this comet, which he describes as having a vertical tail, appeared at the time of the Jewish Passover. Professor Humpherys believed that this started the Magi, who were knowledgeable of the Jewish prophecy recorded in the book of Micah, concerning the birth of a Jewish king, on their journey.

If right about the vertical tail, this could agree with the biblical account in Matthew that the "Star Stood Over" [The House] where the young child was". The comet of 4 BC had no tail and whether it was a comet or a nova is unknown. If it was a nova in 4 BC, which is the death of a star, it would have coincided with the death of Herod the Great in that same year. While historians have usually suggested that comets were always bad omens. Humphreys believes that history shows them to be either good or bad omens.

I could also use any of a number of authorities to supply evidence of the 6 BC triple conjunction of the "King Planet" Jupiter, with Mars, the “God of War” and Saturn the “God of Time,” who brings the golden age of peace to the earth, which I believe was read by the wise men as the sign that was prophesied to herald the birth of the promised King, who was to succeed to the throne of David the warrior king, as the prophesied Messianic King of Israel, who is to come and subdue the surrounding Nations and bring in the golden Age of one thousand years of peace.

It was the comet of 5 BC, which was seen by professor Humpherys as the star that started the wise men on their journey to Jerusalem. Comets in those days, were called “Hairy Stars.” It was this star that guided the wise men who were believed to be Astronomer, Astrologers from the land of Mesopotamia to Jerusalem in Judaea.

All short period comets which re-appear every two hundred years of less, have their aphellia in the orbit of Jupiter and even up until relatively recent times, those short period comets were thought to have been created from material ejected from the King Planet Jupiter and were called the family of Jupiter.

There is no evidence to support the belief that the Chinese reported comet of 5 BC, which was visible for 70 days, and was reported to have a tail, was a short period comet, it may even have been an extremely long period comet or one like the McNaught comet, which will never be seen again, that presumably passed close to Jupiter in the triple conjunction of 6 B.C. and in early 5 B.C. was seen by the Magi as the child having been born of the King Star, which had been united with Mars the warrior star and Saturn, which would have confirmed their belief that the triple conjunction of 6 B.C. was the heavenly sign that was prophesied to herald the birth of the great Messianic King who was to rule the whole world.

Numbers 24: 15-19. 15Then he spoke his message: "The prophecy of Balaam son of Beor, the prophecy of one whose eye sees clearly, 16the prophecy of one who hears the words of God, who has knowledge from the Most High, who sees a vision from the Almighty, who falls prostrate, and whose eyes are opened: 17"I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A King like a bright star will come out of Jacob; Like a Comet will rise out of Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab, and beat down the people of Sheth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property, while Israel continues victorious etc, etc.

 

[user4578]

You can get a comet to appear to hover over anything if you position yourself right

Including small barns among thousands at night apparently...amazing.

 

[The Anointed]

Including small barns among thousands at night apparently...amazing.

Correct as the photo of the Mc Naught comet on page one reveals.

 

[user4578]

Correct as the photo of the Mc Naught comet on page one reveals.

Optical illusion with no real end; doesn't fit the context.

 

[The Anointed]

Optical illusion with no real end; doesn't fit the context.

The Hairy star is seen to be standing over a small village. Like it or lump it kiddo.

 

[Valjean]

But which small village? It it's to your East it will appear above every village on that heading. Move a thousand miles North or South and it will appear to be above more villages, still to your East but a thousand miles removed.

A comet or supernova cannot indicate a specific location on Earth.

 

[The Anointed]

But which small village? It it's to your East it will appear above every village on that heading. Move a thousand miles North or South and it will appear to be above more villages, still to your East but a thousand miles removed.

A comet or supernova cannot indicate a specific location on Earth.

As you head toward the Comet that is visible low to the horizon before you, Nor-west of Jerusalem. You do not even see the Zealot commune where lived Mary and her child, who is to be groomed as the King to take the throne of his ancestor King David and remove the Roman Yoke, until you are almost upon it and there is the comet directly behind the commune, as it slowly descends beyond the horizon in the back ground of descending stars, never to be seen again in the northern hemisphere again.