Sri Guru Granth Sahib verse

[JField]

In the Guru Granth Sahib it says that by his command some are blessed and forgiven and others by his command wander aimlessly forever. So does Sikhism accept the belief in Karma ? Or does Waheguru take on such a role? Also, does this passage indicate that it is possible to never attain Moksha or whatever the Sink equivalent is ?

 

[Treks]

JField Ji

Great question! Complicated, but great!

You're referring to this paurhi of Japji Sahib from Page 1 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji:

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਨ ਕਹਿਆ ਜਾਈ ॥
Hukmī hovan ākār hukam na kahi▫ā jā▫ī.
By His Command, bodies are created; His Command cannot be described.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਹੋਵਨਿ ਜੀਅ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Hukmī hovan jī▫a hukam milai vadi▫ā▫ī.
By His Command, souls come into being; by His Command, glory and greatness are obtained.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਉਤਮੁ ਨੀਚੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਲਿਖਿ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
Hukmī uṯam nīcẖ hukam likẖ ḏukẖ sukẖ pā▫ī▫ah.
By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

ਇਕਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਬਖਸੀਸ ਇਕਿ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸਦਾ ਭਵਾਈਅਹਿ ॥
Iknā hukmī bakẖsīs ik hukmī saḏā bẖavā▫ī▫ah.
Some, by His Command, are blessed and forgiven; others, by His Command, wander aimlessly forever.

ਹੁਕਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਹੁਕਮ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Hukmai anḏar sabẖ ko bāhar hukam na ko▫e.
Everyone is subject to His Command; no one is beyond His Command.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੈ ਜੇ ਬੁਝੈ ਤ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥
Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

I understand the above is making an observation: some people in life appear to be blessed and blameless, while others are tormented by whatever troubles besiege them. That's life, we all experience it differently.

I don't know enough about Gurbani grammar yet, but it seems to me that the English shouldn't add 'His' before the word 'Command'. I think Hukam (translated here as Command) is more like 'the way reality goes'. It just is. When the sub explodes and destroys the earth, that will be Hukam.

Regards your specific questions: Some Sikhs believe in karma, some don't. It is my view that the Gurbani does not support the concept. Please see this thread for a link to a great article explaining how karma and reincarnation are rejected in Sikhi (by the author's understanding).

I'll need to get back to you on moksha later, too tired now.

 

[JField]

I could see how translating it in such a way could misgive the message of the text. Do you know of any passages referring to Karma or is it just presupposed by Sikhs because of the religions close proximity to Hinduins ?

 

[GURSIKH]

In the Guru Granth Sahib it says that by his command some are blessed and forgiven and others by his command wander aimlessly forever. So does Sikhism accept the belief in Karma ? Or does Waheguru take on such a role?

hi Jfield ,


you mean if everything is under HIS Command then what is the role/importance of our Karma/actions ?


Its like a play/movie controlled by the script/director/command ,yet someone is Hero ,someone villain ,sometimes villain turns hero or vice versa based on his/her actions (Karma). few, very few blessed ones understand the rules of the game/play.

Also, does this passage indicate that it is possible to never attain Moksha or whatever the Sink equivalent is ?

"others by his command wander aimlessly forever"
term "forever " led you to ask that question , actually it should be taken as "numerously",as forever wandering is not compatible with Sikh Philosophy . Ultimate destiny of everyone is ONE ,EKONKAAR /EKANKAR as Waves merge into Water .





ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੧
रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १
Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1
Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House:

ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ ਜੈਸੇ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਾਈ ॥
बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥
Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.
The actor stages the play,

ਨਾਨਾ ਰੂਪ ਭੇਖ ਦਿਖਲਾਈ ॥
नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥
Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.
playing the many characters in different costumes;

ਸਾਂਗੁ ਉਤਾਰਿ ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥
Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.
but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,

ਤਬ ਏਕੋ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੧॥
तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥
Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||
and then he is one, and only one. ||1||

ਕਵਨ ਰੂਪ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ ॥
कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥
Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.
How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?

ਕਤਹਿ ਗਇਓ ਉਹੁ ਕਤ ਤੇ ਆਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਊਠਹਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥
जल ते ऊठहि अनिक तरंगा ॥
Jal ṯe ūṯẖėh anik ṯarangā.
Countless waves rise up from the water.

ਕਨਿਕ ਭੂਖਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗਾ ॥
कनिक भूखन कीने बहु रंगा ॥
Kanik bẖūkẖan kīne baho rangā.
Jewels and ornaments of many different forms are fashioned from gold.

ਬੀਜੁ ਬੀਜਿ ਦੇਖਿਓ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰਾ ॥
बीजु बीजि देखिओ बहु परकारा ॥
Bīj bīj ḏekẖi▫o baho parkārā.
I have seen seeds of all kinds being planted -

ਫਲ ਪਾਕੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
फल पाके ते एकंकारा ॥२॥
Fal pāke ṯe ekankārā. ||2||
when the fruit ripens, the seeds appear in the same form as the original. ||2||

ਸਹਸ ਘਟਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਆਕਾਸੁ ॥
सहस घटा महि एकु आकासु ॥
Sahas gẖatā mėh ek ākās.
The one sky is reflected in thousands of water jugs,

ਘਟ ਫੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਓਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਗਾਸੁ ॥
घट फूटे ते ओही प्रगासु ॥
Gẖat fūte ṯe ohī pargās.
but when the jugs are broken, only the sky remains.

ਭਰਮ ਲੋਭ ਮੋਹ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥
भरम लोभ मोह माइआ विकार ॥
Bẖaram lobẖ moh mā▫i▫ā vikār.
Doubt comes from greed, emotional attachment and the corruption of Maya.

ਭ੍ਰਮ ਛੂਟੇ ਤੇ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ ॥੩॥
भ्रम छूटे ते एकंकार ॥३॥
Bẖaram cẖẖūte ṯe ekankār. ||3||
Freed from doubt, one realizes the One Lord alone. ||3||

ਓਹੁ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਬਿਨਸਤ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
ओहु अबिनासी बिनसत नाही ॥
Oh abẖināsī binsaṯ nāhī.
He is imperishable; He will never pass away.

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਵੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਜਾਹੀ ॥
ना को आवै ना को जाही ॥
Nā ko āvai nā ko jāhī.
He does not come, and He does not go.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਮਲੁ ਧੋਈ ॥
गुरि पूरै हउमै मलु धोई ॥
Gur pūrai ha▫umai mal ḏẖo▫ī.
The Perfect Guru has washed away the filth of ego.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਮੇਰੀ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੪॥੧॥
कहु नानक मेरी परम गति होई ॥४॥१॥
Kaho Nānak merī param gaṯ ho▫ī. ||4||1||
Says Nanak, I have obtained the supreme status. ||4||1||

 

[JField]

Thanks for clearing this up for me, and yes, I did take it that the text was saying they would wander aimlessly "forever". It is funny that you compared it to a play or movie I often think of life as such, with God as the actor/director and us his characters

 

[Aupmanyav]

Nānak hukmai je bujẖai ṯa ha▫umai kahai na ko▫e. ||2||
O Nanak, one who understands His Command, does not speak in ego. ||2||

I don't know enough about Gurbani grammar yet, but it seems to me that the English shouldn't add 'His' before the word 'Command'.

I agree with your point. To describe 'the one who exists' as a man would be a limitation and wrong. What do we know of it?

As for the 'paurhi' (verse), I think the most important point is about ego. 'One who understands should not have ego' of having done something himself. The same as 'ma karma-phala hetur bhuh' in Gita (do not think yourself to be the cause of an action). I hope you do not mind the interjection of Gita.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"O brothers! Behold the justice of the True Creator: one is rewarded for what one does. AGGS, M 4, p. 308.

God (inner voice/conscience) sees and hears everything all the time; nothing is concealed from God. One reaps what one has learnt to plant from previous experience. AGGS, M
4, p. 309."

If there is a reward then there will be punishment also.

 

[Treks]

"Haumai" is another word mis-translated into English as 'ego' when it might be better translated as 'separation' (from Ik Onkar). But that's another thread in itself.

 

[Aupmanyav]

True. Ego is separation from Ek Onkar. Haumai - Hamari - Tumhari - Iski- Uski, means not of 'Ek Onkar'. This is denying 'Ek Onkar'.

 

[Treks]

Yeah

But the problem is that 'ego' in English does not mean "separation from Ik Onkar". We all have and need an ego as part of the human mind. Without one, we couldn't function.

Haumai interpreted strictly as "separation from Ik Onkar" makes a lot more sense. You can focus on removing the sense of separation, but it's a folly to try to rid yourself of your own ego. This is not to say we shouldn't strive to be humble and minimise our egotistical pride, of course.

 

[Treks]

In the Guru Granth Sahib it says that by his command some are blessed and forgiven and others by his command wander aimlessly forever. So does Sikhism accept the belief in Karma ? Or does Waheguru take on such a role? Also, does this passage indicate that it is possible to never attain Moksha or whatever the Sink equivalent is ?

The Sikh equivalent is to be Jivan-Mukt (liberated while alive). Here's a snipped from SikhiWiki, although I highly recommend you read the whole article Jivan mukta - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia. :

The jivan-mukta of Sikh conception is the realized soul, identified as gurmukh (one whose face is turned towards God). He leads the life of a common householder enriched by the experience of spiritual harmony within. "He surrenders himself completely to the Will of God; joy and sorrow are the same to him; he experiences bliss always and viyog (separation) never" (GG, 275). Instead of the differentiating ego, the all-encompassing Divine Spirit resides in him. Existentially he belongs to the world, essentially he transcends the world.​

To the contrary, that paurhi of Japji Sahib is talking about how to realise this jivan-mukhi state of being, by transcending the illusion of separation (haumai).

Hope this helps with your question.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The jivan-mukta of Sikh conception is the realized soul, identified as gurmukh (one whose face is turned towards God). He leads the life of a common householder enriched by the experience of spiritual harmony within. "He surrenders himself completely to the Will of God; joy and sorrow are the same to him; he experiences bliss always and viyog (separation) never" (GG, 275). Instead of the differentiating ego, the all-encompassing Divine Spirit resides in him. Existentially he belongs to the world, essentially he transcends the world.

By what you write I take that a 'jeevan-mukta' does not need ego.

 

[Unguru]

By what you write I take that a 'jeevan-mukta' does not need ego.

You have your own DIR, proselytize your Vedanta over there Hinduism DIR

 

[ManSinha]

You have your own DIR, proselytize your Vedanta over there Hinduism DIR

Oh come on - there are a lot of similarities between the Vedas and what SGGS says - there are a few of us that hold the view that the Guru's came to simplify Snatan Dharma for the masses and make the eternal message easy to understand but I digress

I do believe that Sikhism holds that "hell" is having to go thru the birth death cycle over and over - and the "ultimate prize" or moksha is to be merged with the one light / one truth

That is the ending of the hymn that @Treks refers to in post #11

According to the SGGS - there are literally millions of life forms one could take - depending on one's actions - the human form is the highest as it gives one the chance to associate with good charactered individuals and strive towards merging with the Lord

 

[Aupmanyav]

You have your own DIR, proselytize your Vedanta over there Hinduism DIR

Asking respectful questions is permitted in other DIR. I have been interacting with Treks, ManSinha and others who are Sikhs. My daughter-n-law is of Sikh extraction. The first temple that my younger grandson went on the third day of his birth was a Gurudwara Moti Bagh Sahib. My son has sung 'shabads' at Darbar Sahib and Bangla Sahib. I think you are not being fair about telling me the rules of the DIRs.

 

[Unguru]

I think you are not being fair about telling me the rules of the DIRs.

You've had your warning, stop proselytizing, GET OUT

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am in no way proselytizing. I do not think members can give out warnings. There are Mods to oversee this.

 

[SalixIncendium]

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