Spiritual Witness

[idea]

For those whose testimony and faith is based on a personal spiritual witness - how do you interpret the spiritual witnesses of others to other faiths?

 

[idea]

For everyone who has chosen:
God leads different people to different contradictory faiths

What purpose would there be for God to tell one group of people one thing, and another group something different?

 

[sun rise]

I'll write it this way: there is no essential difference between St. Francis of Assisi, Ramakrishna Paramhamsa, Rumi and Kabir. They will have spoken in language intended for the people of their time and place but the essence is the same.

 

[sun rise]

What purpose would there be for God to tell one group of people one thing, and another group something different?

It's for the same reason a doctor treats every patient according to his illness. Some people find one viewpoint just what they need and others find a different perspective most helpful

 

[idea]

It's for the same reason a doctor treats every patient according to his illness. Some people find one viewpoint just what they need and others find a different perspective most helpful

So one child needs to hear they are called as a polygamous child bride, and another child is called to hear they are to keep themselves safe from pedophiles? (See child in video above)

Some need to hear they are to kill themselves (heaven's gate) while others are called to live?

Some are called to blow up buildings and others are called to peace?

Some religious people were called to kill Jesus, and others were called to mourn at the cross?

 

[AlexanderG]

It's for the same reason a doctor treats every patient according to his illness. Some people find one viewpoint just what they need and others find a different perspective most helpful

If a doctor told one patient with severe acne to eat more vegetables to cure their disease, and told another person with severe acne to eat fewer vegetables to cure their disease, then we would rightly conclude that the doctor was a crackpot.

If two people claimed there was an invisible doctor who gave them prescriptions for diametrically opposite treatments for the same affliction, we would rightly conclude at least one of them was lying or mistaken.

Your ad hoc explanation fails very thoroughly. We're not talking about viewpoints, but pronouncements of absolute moral laws and descriptions of the fundamental nature of reality. For these kinds of metaphysical statements to be "true for some but not for others," they would have to be subjective or relative, not metaphysical or ontological as every religion claims. And that's not how objective truth works.

 

[sun rise]

We're not talking about viewpoints, but pronouncements of absolute moral laws and descriptions of the fundamental nature of reality.

Ah, the royal "we" that claims something not spelled out exactly and precisely in the OP. Got it. Have a nice day.

 

[sun rise]

So one child needs to hear they are called as a polygamous child bride, and another child is called to hear they are to keep themselves safe from pedophiles? (See child in video above)

Some need to hear they are to kill themselves (heaven's gate) while others are called to live?

Some are called to blow up buildings and others are called to peace?

Some religious people were called to kill Jesus, and others were called to mourn at the cross?

So doctors should treat all patients with the same treatment no matter the disease. Got it.

 

[1213]

For those whose testimony and faith is based on a personal spiritual witness - how do you interpret the spiritual witnesses of others to other faiths?...

It depends on what is the spiritual experience.

 

[idea]

It depends on what is the spiritual experience.

Let's say you meet someone from another faith who is so convinced of their experience that they have dedicated their life to their religious group, spend all their time preaching their beliefs to others, live their life in accordance to their religious group's teachings (diet, clothing, behavior), and are so convinced of their beliefs they are willing to die for them. There are many such people from many different religious groups who justify their beliefs from personal "spiritual experiences". Do you see anyone, other than those from your own religious group, as having genuine guidance from God?

 

[idea]

So doctors should treat all patients with the same treatment no matter the disease. Got it.

I find it hard to understand how leading a little girl to be a child bride, or blowing up buildings, or feeling prompted to kill yourself or others is a healthy treatment. It seems like a loving and just being would want to promote unity, understanding, shared values and support for everyone. I agree that we each have unique needs, but accounts of "spiritual witness" directions can be so vastly opposing and at odds to one another, it seems an honest question to re-interpret these experiences as possibly being something that is not from God.

In light of the shared experiences of others, and finding my own experiences to testify of things I later found were false, I now believe "elevation" is not from God, but is instead a natural chemical released in the bodies of social animals that form herds to assist with group dynamics. Similarly to bees following a queen (with many different hives, and many different queen bees), to birds organizing group migrations and fish being directed to mating grounds - I now believe that all the "elevation" feelings humans experience are not in fact from a God, but are natural instincts helping us to work with one another.

Elevation is an incredible feeling and it is really neat to feel connected with others in a social group - to work together.... I just do not think it is from God....

When Holland's talk was pulled for being false I realized that "elevation" did not testify of truth... through other painful experiences I learned it was not a protection. There are many who say "denying the spirit" is the worst sin there is, but what else am I to conclude given evidence that it is false and provides contradictory direction to so many different groups?

 

[AlexanderG]

Ah, the royal "we" that claims something not spelled out exactly and precisely in the OP. Got it. Have a nice day.

By "we," I was referring to the conversation so far between you and me. I think you misunderstood. And you also didn't address any of the points I made.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

For everyone who has chosen:
God leads different people to different contradictory faiths

What purpose would there be for God to tell one group of people one thing, and another group something different?

Dear idea,

God does not "tell" [us] X Y Z, because God "speaks" in concepts - not language.
Man puts spiritual concepts into words by interpreting what is spiritually experienced and Man's spiritual interpretations vary because they are based on his personal experiences of life in general.

Often Man's spiritual interpretations will vary widely in details, but not vary so greatly in concept, because the concept is what he truly received. And the concept, though hard to live by, is rather simple:

• Man is One
• All is as must be
  
• Man is both good and bad
• Man evolves and can repent and change, learn to forgive his brother and in return be forgiven by God's grace

Humbly
Hermit

 

[idea]

Dear idea,

God does not "tell" [us] X Y Z, because God "speaks" in concepts - not language.
Man puts spiritual concepts into words by interpreting what is spiritually experienced and Man's spiritual interpretations vary because they are based on his personal experiences of life in general.

Often Man's spiritual interpretations will vary widely in details, but not vary so greatly in concept, because the concept is what he truly received. And the concept, though hard to live by, is rather simple:

• Man is One
• All is as must be
  
• Man is both good and bad
• Man evolves and can repent and change, learn to forgive his brother and in return be forgiven by God's grace

Humbly
Hermit

I'm going to argue with "all is as must be". I have found the most comfort in the ability to change bad situations.

To me it is just the laws of nature - no need to "forgive" an animal or a person - we are animals too, some you learn to stay away from.

Our "interpretations" agree with one another for what is real - the acceleration of gravity, the boiling point of water at a given pressure - if it is real, multiple independent labs agree.

Manipulative people would like everyone to agree on beliefs that benefit one group over another, but when not independently verified, when not agreed upon, it is not real.

 

[1213]

Let's say you meet someone from another faith who is so convinced of their experience that they have dedicated their life to their religious group, spend all their time preaching their beliefs to others, live their life in accordance to their religious group's teachings (diet, clothing, behavior), and are so convinced of their beliefs they are willing to die for them. There are many such people from many different religious groups who justify their beliefs from personal "spiritual experiences". Do you see anyone, other than those from your own religious group, as having genuine guidance from God?

If what they have is in contradiction with the Bible teachings, I think they are not guided by the Bible God. It may be that they don't just imagine the whole thing and they are really led by something they call their god. It may be real experience and even a real being. However, I think people should not keep anyone else as their God than Bible God.

 

[Watchmen]

This is one major flaw of religion. There are five great religions, suggesting any individual believer actually has only a 20% chance of being right. Take into account the various denominations/sects/divisions of those religions, and the chance of being right plummets even more. How do the religious temper the odds? I suppose they psychologically reassure themselves that THEY are right and everyone else is wrong while ignoring the odds. Then again, they already believe in something with zero evidence, so I suppose that’s not such a leap for them.

 

[idea]

If what they have is in contradiction with the Bible teachings, I think they are not guided by the Bible God. It may be that they don't just imagine the whole thing and they are really led by something they call their god. It may be real experience and even a real being. However, I think people should not keep anyone else as their God than Bible God.

Why do you think the Bible's God chose not to provide the Bible to everyone?

Why does everyone interpret the Bible so differently?

 

[1213]

Why do you think the Bible's God chose not to provide the Bible to everyone?

Why does everyone interpret the Bible so differently?

I don't see any good reason to make interpretations of the Bible. I think it should be understood as it is written. Bible gives the correct meanings of what it says, no need for interpretations. I think interpretations are made only when person doesn't really like the truth and direct message.

I believe all people have the opportunity to find truth and understand what is right, even if they don't have the Bible, because:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

 

[idea]

I don't see any good reason to make interpretations of the Bible. I think it should be understood as it is written. Bible gives the correct meanings of what it says, no need for interpretations. I think interpretations are made only when person doesn't really like the truth and direct message.

No book contains all the details. Think of a book you have read that also had a movie made of it - did you like the movie?

WHY ARE MOVIES NEVER AS GOOD AS THE BOOKS?
"Since each reader must project the words using his own mind, each reading experience is highly personalized. In other words, the writer gets to speak powerfully to each and every one of his readers by tapping into the reader’s imagination and memories. Villains are more sinister and heroes are more personable because the reader is able to fill in the details as he sees fit. In these “theaters of the imagination,” anything is possible. "

Written words are by nature interpreted by each who reads them differently.

I believe all people have the opportunity to find truth and understand what is right, even if they don't have the Bible, because:

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

It comes down to everyone following their conscience (not following the Bible, or following any religious denomination). We all have a conscience - if that is what Romans 2:12 is getting at, then I agree. Our situations are all so unique, best that none of us judge anyone else, that we all just following our own conscience, and personal projected interpretations. Perhaps contentions within all the different denominations are by design - that God does not want us leaning on any arms of flesh, but instead wants us all to have individual personal testimonies with no middle-man, no priest, no preachers, no borrowed light, just personal individual conscience and understanding for all of us

 

[1213]

...Perhaps contentions within all the different denominations are by design - that God does not want us leaning on any arms of flesh, but instead wants us all to have individual personal testimonies with no middle-man, no priest, no preachers, no borrowed light, just personal individual conscience and understanding for all of us

This may be the land of confusion, but I don’t believe in God of confusion. I believe God can directly announce His will to person, but God’s message is coherent for all. The message is not contradictory to what is said in the Bible.

God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the assemblies of the saints,
1 Cor. 14:33