Spirit vs matter

[Music]

I am not referring to religious folks with their homophobic attitudes, racism etc. I am referring to those who keep their minds on the things of the spirit - love, peace, forgiveness, and so on.

Then there are those whose minds only revolve around the things of the world - money, success, status, power. They worship those who have these things, and shun those who have nothing. This is their religion.

Throughout history, we see a battle between these two forces. And although it appears as if the world has an edge, in the end it is only the spirit that triumphs. Violence, slavery, exploitation etc. used to be the norm, they represent crude materialism. But today, non-violence, equality, cooperation - in short, things of the spirit - are becoming more and more relevant even though many people still continue to fight against these values.

Somehow, with or without people's support or knowledge, spirit triumphs over matter, peace over violence, compassion over cruelty, cooperation over competition. And I am glad this is so.

 

[Straw Dog]

Is the human spirit separate from the world? Can I love without another physical being to receive it? Can I offer peace without a policy of violence? Can I forgive without a physical action that another wishes to be forgiven? The human spirit acts within the rest of physical reality.

 

[kylixguru]

I am not referring to religious folks with their homophobic attitudes, racism etc. I am referring to those who keep their minds on the things of the spirit - love, peace, forgiveness, and so on.

So if I view homosexuality as an undesirable disorder that leads to further confusion and societal breakdown, I am a person divested of love?
What if it is an undesirable disorder that leads to further confusion and societal breakdown?

Then there are those whose minds only revolve around the things of the world - money, success, status, power. They worship those who have these things, and shun those who have nothing. This is their religion.

People have all kinds of religions.

Throughout history, we see a battle between these two forces.

All kinds of forces are in play and always will be.

And although it appears as if the world has an edge, in the end it is only the spirit that triumphs.

In what way? People skilled at working hard and making money will always be successful at that. Those who do not spend time and effort to develop themselves in this area would be insane to think that somehow there's going to be some magic pill they can take that will enable them to acquire skills and abilities they have not sought or developed.

Violence, slavery, exploitation etc. used to be the norm, they represent crude materialism. But today, non-violence, equality, cooperation - in short, things of the spirit - are becoming more and more relevant even though many people still continue to fight against these values.

I beg your pardon but violence, slavery and exploitation are on the rise in a massive way.

Somehow, with or without people's support or knowledge, spirit triumphs over matter, peace over violence, compassion over cruelty, cooperation over competition. And I am glad this is so.

It is not so and never shall be.

What does happen is the crap hits the fan and there is some extreme population adjustments due to a breakdown in social order. Those who are skilled in the material realm and who are also disciplined in the spiritual realm are the most likely to weather through such calamitous times.

Don't pit against one another two things that are both necessary developments we as individuals should aspire to. I agree that greedy and totally non-caring and unscrupulous materialistic people are going to get trounced because they lack a healthy spiritual connection. But, those who have neglected their material development and who are totally **** poor and without means during calamitous times are generally wiped away the quickest.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but nowhere in history have I seen periods of major calamity and unrest favor either polarity you are addressing. The balanced and complete are who tend to weather things through the best.

 

[Pegg]

I am not referring to religious folks with their homophobic attitudes, racism etc. I am referring to those who keep their minds on the things of the spirit - love, peace, forgiveness, and so on.

Then there are those whose minds only revolve around the things of the world - money, success, status, power. They worship those who have these things, and shun those who have nothing. This is their religion.

Throughout history, we see a battle between these two forces. And although it appears as if the world has an edge, in the end it is only the spirit that triumphs. Violence, slavery, exploitation etc. used to be the norm, they represent crude materialism. But today, non-violence, equality, cooperation - in short, things of the spirit - are becoming more and more relevant even though many people still continue to fight against these values.

Somehow, with or without people's support or knowledge, spirit triumphs over matter, peace over violence, compassion over cruelty, cooperation over competition. And I am glad this is so.

this is so true and what a great idea to discuss.

This is a subject that the early christians had a lot to say about. their writings are full of information about why walking by 'spirit' is superior to walking by the 'flesh'

Here are a few examples:

Galatians 5:16.“Keep walking by spirit and you will carry out no fleshly desire at all.”

Romans 8:5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those in accord with the spirit on the things of the spirit.

Galatians 5:19- explains the difference between the 'flesh' and the 'spirit'
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects, 21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these....
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control

In the complex world we live in today, living by the spirit could certainly ease a lot of the problems in our world today. Sadly, most people are indulging in the 'flesh' and you dont have to look too far to see the devastating result of doing so.

 

[Straw Dog]

Isn't it written that the spirit was breathed into flesh? How can they be separated?

 

[kylixguru]

Isn't it written that the spirit was breathed into flesh? How can they be separated?

It is written and so it is. Flesh is a prerequisite to spiritual birth.
The flesh dies and the spirit lives on until it is breathed into flesh again.

 

[Pegg]

Isn't it written that the spirit was breathed into flesh? How can they be separated?

they can be separated because one comes from God, the other from man.

Isaiah 55:8 “For the thoughts of YOU people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways YOUR ways,is the utterance of Jehovah. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than YOUR ways, and my thoughts than YOUR thoughts.

to live purely for the flesh means to reject our spirituality... our spirituality is what makes us higher then the animals. We can either live like animals...purely to feed our flesh, or we can live like God and live according to love.

 

[Straw Dog]

The earth does abide by the ways of heaven, and by heaven I mean the Cosmos. I cannot conceive of anything beyond the Universe, which shouldn't be suprising as I cannot even fully conceptualize the Cosmos. That's already a level beyond my comprehension. As far as something beyond the Cosmos, I'm hopeless haha. It's already incredibly awe inspiring and it makes me lose myself in the grand scheme of things. How could I imagine something beyond even that which already transcends my comprehension? I don't know.

 

[Straw Dog]

[/I][/COLOR]to live purely for the flesh means to reject our spirituality... our spirituality is what makes us higher then the animals. We can either live like animals...purely to feed our flesh, or we can live like God and live according to love.

Even animals are capable of love. Have you ever owned a dog? Do you not believe that the dog loves you? It certainly seems that way. It even seems to be unconditional love in some cases. Don't believe me? Pay closer attention. Dog spelled backwards is God. Coincidence? Probably haha. Observing animals can actually give us some perspective on how to live in the moment. I believe that the potential of other animals besides humans is underestimated.

 

[Pegg]

Even animals are capable of love. Have you ever owned a dog? Do you not believe that the dog loves you? It certainly seems that way. It even seems to be unconditional love in some cases. Don't believe me? Pay closer attention. Dog spelled backwards is God. Coincidence? Probably haha. Observing animals can actually give us some perspective on how to live in the moment. I believe that the potential of other animals besides humans is underestimated.

well, dogs are not called 'mans best friend' without good reason.

but when it comes to justice, dogs fail to exhibit that Godly quality. A hungry dog will fight for its food...they dont apportion it out fairly among a pack of dogs. The weaker dogs get the leftover and the strongest dogs eat the best parts.

While i appreciate a dogs loyalty toward humans, I dont see that as evidence the dog is anymore like God then a fish. I think all creatures have natural instincts placed in them by God and some instincts are to benefit man...other instincts are purely for the survival of the animal.

but dont get me wrong, i love dogs...i have two of them.

 

[Straw Dog]

Dogs are exceptional examples, but that may be because they have a symbiotic relationship with us. Humankind, in it's own right, is also unique. We are capable of things that no other known species is. We may contemplate our own death as well as any metaphysical beliefs that accompany it. We have a degree of self-reflection that does seem to distinguish us from other animals. That's our thing, just as it is a bird's thing to fly. We are superior to other animals in some respects and inferior in other ways. We have to work with our nature, however, rather than against it. How do you reckon we do that?

 

[Pegg]

Dogs are exceptional examples, but that may be because they have a symbiotic relationship with us. Humankind, in it's own right, is also unique. We are capable of things that no other known species is. We may contemplate our own death as well as any metaphysical beliefs that accompany it. We have a degree of self-reflection that does seem to distinguish us from other animals. That's our thing, just as it is a bird's thing to fly. We are superior to other animals in some respects and inferior in other ways. We have to work with our nature, however, rather than against it. How do you reckon we do that?

we have two natures...physical and spiritual... the only way for us to be 'complete' is to work with both of them.

 

[Quintessence]

Dear gods, it's attitudes like that that remind me of why I'm Neopagan and nondualist.

I may try to come up with a more coherent response later, but right now one isn't coming that isn't going to sound dickish. It suffices to say it's easy for me to get uppity about notions of "matter = all that is evil and wrong; spirit = all that is good and right." >_>

 

[Straw Dog]

we have two natures...physical and spiritual... the only way for us to be 'complete' is to work with both of them.

So our two natures have become one in action? That is the only way to properly address them.

 

[Pegg]

So our two natures have become one in action? That is the only way to properly address them.

they balance each other out.... if you neglect one, the other takes over and an imbalance occurs.

 

[Straw Dog]

they balance each other out.... if you neglect one, the other takes over and an imbalance occurs.

So it doesn't make sense to condemn materialism anymore than it does to condemn spiritualism. They both co-emerge together within the same life forms. There is no spirit without matter and there is no matter without spirit. It doesn't make sense to love the one and hate the other.

 

[Pegg]

So it doesn't make sense to condemn materialism anymore than it does to condemn spiritualism. They both co-emerge together within the same life forms. There is no spirit without matter and there is no matter without spirit. It doesn't make sense to love the one and hate the other.

nor does it make sense to indulge the one and neglect the other.

 

[Straw Dog]

nor does it make sense to indulge the one and neglect the other.

What other? In the end, they form a synthesis. It is a difficult balance, but I think that the higher self should have authority over the lower self due to its heightened frame of reference. The spiritual, intellectual, and aesthetic should take precedence over the sensational and bodily. This is a logical deduction. It doesn't matter what abstract beliefs we apply, as this is the path to wisdom.

 

[Music]

Dear gods, it's attitudes like that that remind me of why I'm Neopagan and nondualist.

I may try to come up with a more coherent response later, but right now one isn't coming that isn't going to sound dickish. It suffices to say it's easy for me to get uppity about notions of "matter = all that is evil and wrong; spirit = all that is good and right." >_>

That which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of spirit is spirit.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

That which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of spirit is spirit.

As if that solves any internal issue about substance dualism at all.