-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Spirit (Immortal) & Resurrection
- Thread starter Kolibri
- Start date
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
the words soul and spirit are never really interchangeable, though they both have multiple meanings. Jesus did entrust his future life to his God. That spark could be returned. But Psalms 146:4 says what happens at the moment of death.
His spirit (or "breath.") goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God.
- Psalm 146:4,5
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
That scripture proves we have a spirit that does not die.
God can destroy our spirit in hell, but man cannot kill our spirit.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The saved are given one Holy Spirit. That does not mean we each are not flesh and spirit. There are scriptures that say we are flesh and spirit.
Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.
Zechariah 12:1 shows us that the spirit has a form.
Stop confusing the scriptures about the Holy Spirit from the scriptures about our own spirit.
Robert.Evans
You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
1. The words, "spirit" ("pneuma") and "soul" ("psuche") are used in a variety of ways in Scripture. However, they are never referred to as conscious immortal entities within man.
2. It is likely that in the passage under consideration by "spirit" is meant "mind"1, and by "soul" is meant "life". The expression, "spirit and soul and body" is synonymous with the whole person. Consider the following:
a. Spirit, soul and body are synonymous with the whole person since the preceding words, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" imply a parallelism between the two expressions.
b. The word "spirit" is used elsewhere by the Apostle Paul as synonymous with the "mind". For example:
i. "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit . . . " (1 Cor. 5:3).
ii "That ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind . . . " (Phil. 1:27).
iii See also 1 Cor. 7:34; 2 Cor. 7:1.
c. The word "soul" is used elsewhere by the Apostle for "life". For example.....
i "So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us." (1 Thess. 2:8).
ii "Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul . . . " (2 Cor. 1:23).
3. A corpse is a body without life. An idiot is a body with a soul (life), but with only an improperly functioning spirit (mind). It is the person with spirit and soul and body - the whole person, which Paul prays may be "preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
4. If the body is destroyed, then necessarily the life and mind cease to function. In death there is a dissolution of being. (Ecc. 9:5,6; Psa. 146:4).
2. It is likely that in the passage under consideration by "spirit" is meant "mind"1, and by "soul" is meant "life". The expression, "spirit and soul and body" is synonymous with the whole person. Consider the following:
a. Spirit, soul and body are synonymous with the whole person since the preceding words, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly" imply a parallelism between the two expressions.
b. The word "spirit" is used elsewhere by the Apostle Paul as synonymous with the "mind". For example:
i. "For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit . . . " (1 Cor. 5:3).
ii "That ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind . . . " (Phil. 1:27).
iii See also 1 Cor. 7:34; 2 Cor. 7:1.
c. The word "soul" is used elsewhere by the Apostle for "life". For example.....
i "So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us." (1 Thess. 2:8).
ii "Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul . . . " (2 Cor. 1:23).
3. A corpse is a body without life. An idiot is a body with a soul (life), but with only an improperly functioning spirit (mind). It is the person with spirit and soul and body - the whole person, which Paul prays may be "preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
4. If the body is destroyed, then necessarily the life and mind cease to function. In death there is a dissolution of being. (Ecc. 9:5,6; Psa. 146:4).
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Paul proves that our spirits can live the body while the body is still alive.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
I am not sure all of those resurrected had developed a personal relationship with God, 3 were children.
Post-death judging will not be based on deeds done in the life now. Rather it will be on their deeds after resurrection.
Those that have died already paid for all their sins up to that point.
"For the wages sin pays is death." - Roman 6:23a
Last edited:
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Our mind, our feelings, our conscious, that is our spirit. If anyone gets a modern English version Bible, you can easily see that whenever the bible talks about our soul, it is at that time concerned with our living body (our physical living body with its spirit).
Whenever the bible talks about our spirit, it is concentrating on our spirit, our spirit whether in our body or out of our body.
Whenever the bible talks about our body, it is speaking of a living physical body or a dead physical body.
A soul is a physical body alive with a spirit. The body is dead without the spirit (James 2:26), and the spirit lives on after death of the body.
Refer to 1 Thessalonians. We can see that God will sanctify us through and through, our whole spirit (spirit without a body), soul (spirit and body together), and our body (with or without our spirit/dead or alive). God truly sanctifies us through and through.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
The soul is a physical body with its spirit.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
Say what Paul says! Paul SAYS whether in the body OR OUT OF THE BODY.
Believe what is written.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
You do not say what the scriptures say. The scriptures do not say the spark that keeps corporeal life living is the Holy Spirit and a motivating mental disposition.
Speak according to the scriptures. Do not lean to the left or to the right of what is written. Do not go beyond what is written either.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
I know you are not deliberately misunderstanding me. These definitions are not interchangeable. But they all come from the Greek word pneu'ma.
The English word grace has some 14 different meanings. Likewise pneu'ma has 6 as used in the Bible. Which definition applies to which verse is what is getting confused.
Yes
Oh how I love the Word of God!
You are the confused one.
Stop bringing up Greek.
We do not have to learn another language to know God's Truth!
The Bible has been translated to English.
we-live-now
Active Member
Hey, great question.
Have you studied the original words of Genesis and actually drew out what was really occurring? It will take some time, but it will answer your questions in full. I have been doing it the past 2 years and what I found is nothing short of astounding. We actually have a single spirit (man) but he is divided into master and slave (husband and wife). We also have a soul that is also divided with part "inner" behind the veil and part "outer' outside the veil. That's right the garden is actually split into two different realms. One called "the garden" and one called "the garden of Eden". Same for our body. We have a "spiritual" body that is inner and a natural body that is "outer". One is mortal and is "flesh" and will die in the true (spiritual) circumcision of the outer man. The other is immortal and will live forever as it contains the "seed of the woman" who is Christ both the "first" and the "last" (Adam). The seed just needs to be planted into the "Earth" of a natural body and be watered and heated up by the "sun" (trials and tribulations of this life/death) before it germinates and springs forth true life from within.
I know to some die hard Christians, this will sound like I am smoking crack. I thought I was too at first! That's because we have been taught what man thinks the Bible says and not what it REALLY says in the original Words.
If you are interested, download this free Interlinear Scripture Analyzer (ISA) at www.scripture4all.org. This has been one of the most amazing tools to help me understand what God is really saying.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing that! I've been using ISA for years. Love it!! It's helped me so much in my studies!!
Kolibri #22 : “ the words soul and spirit are never really interchangeable, though they both have multiple meanings. Jesus did entrust his future life to his God. That spark could be returned. But Psalms 146:4 says what happens at the moment of death.
His spirit (or "breath.") goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God.
- Psalm 146:4,5
Yes in # 36 “Stop bringing up Greek.”
Hi Kolibri :
Though it is quite silly and counterproductive for Yes to ask anyone to stop bringing up the original meaning of a word or text, Psalms 146:4-5 does not tell us “thoughts” perish (if one is using the greek LXX as a source). The translation of διαλογισμοι as “thoughts” is incorrect. Doug Moo and his group noticed this and render the greek as “plans” in the NIV. That is, when the spirit departs the body upon death, any “plans” made during life come to nothing.
The word Διαλογιζομαι (Dialogizomai) is related to the English word dialogue and exhaustive treatments of the word by early Koine linguists, showed that it was never given the discrete meaning of “thought” (i.e. “cogitation”) in any Koine text found to the 19th century, but instead has judicial usage as it’s base historical context.
For example, in P Ryl II. 74 it is used in it’s typical meaning of holding a discussion and examination upon a subject. It meant holding "court" of some type (whether one is making his own judgment or an official court judgment).
For example, in P Oxy. III. 484:24 "...the praefect Avidius Heliodorus holds his auspicious court…”, διαλογιζηται was used for “court” or “examination” of a premise.
In Vettius Valens p. 245:26 it is used to mean “discuss” or “examine” which also was part of the process of considering through dialogue and coming to a decision (a judgment).
The common relationship in all of its uses was that it referred to an examination of a premise which undergoes “deliberation” or “questioning” in the process of coming to a decision or judgment.
Thus, when it is used in James 2:4 the translation is, again, faulty. It is not “evil thoughts” (KJV) that the judges are guilty of, but rather, the judges are guilty of making corrupt and evil “decisions” and corrupt “judgments”.
My point in this post is that Psalms 146:4-5 does NOT tell us that “thoughts perish”. The concept of ceasing deliberations and ceasing interactions with other mortals and ceasing discussions and plans for mortality can certainly be made, but the term does not refer to ceasing thought or ceasing cognition.
Kolibri, I hope your journey is good.
Clear
ειφιειω
P.S. I believe you are perfectly correct that originally, the words for "soul" and "spirit" were not the same thing at all.
One difficulty is that translations have often interchanged these words so that they lost some textual distinction over time (as did many other terms). If the Massorah demonstrates anything, it is that the Jewish texts in their many versions were just as contaminated and confused and error prone as the Christian texts themselves became. Since there are no originals of either sets, I do not see a way to clarify and fix the texts at this point.
The Massorites who created the Textus Recepus expressed the a tradition that when Elias came, he would correct errors in the Jewish texts. I hope they are correct in this belief and that he'll correct christian texts as well.
His spirit (or "breath.") goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.
Happy is the one who has the God of Jacob as his helper,
Whose hope is in Jehovah his God.
- Psalm 146:4,5
Yes in # 36 “Stop bringing up Greek.”
Hi Kolibri :
Though it is quite silly and counterproductive for Yes to ask anyone to stop bringing up the original meaning of a word or text, Psalms 146:4-5 does not tell us “thoughts” perish (if one is using the greek LXX as a source). The translation of διαλογισμοι as “thoughts” is incorrect. Doug Moo and his group noticed this and render the greek as “plans” in the NIV. That is, when the spirit departs the body upon death, any “plans” made during life come to nothing.
The word Διαλογιζομαι (Dialogizomai) is related to the English word dialogue and exhaustive treatments of the word by early Koine linguists, showed that it was never given the discrete meaning of “thought” (i.e. “cogitation”) in any Koine text found to the 19th century, but instead has judicial usage as it’s base historical context.
For example, in P Ryl II. 74 it is used in it’s typical meaning of holding a discussion and examination upon a subject. It meant holding "court" of some type (whether one is making his own judgment or an official court judgment).
For example, in P Oxy. III. 484:24 "...the praefect Avidius Heliodorus holds his auspicious court…”, διαλογιζηται was used for “court” or “examination” of a premise.
In Vettius Valens p. 245:26 it is used to mean “discuss” or “examine” which also was part of the process of considering through dialogue and coming to a decision (a judgment).
The common relationship in all of its uses was that it referred to an examination of a premise which undergoes “deliberation” or “questioning” in the process of coming to a decision or judgment.
Thus, when it is used in James 2:4 the translation is, again, faulty. It is not “evil thoughts” (KJV) that the judges are guilty of, but rather, the judges are guilty of making corrupt and evil “decisions” and corrupt “judgments”.
My point in this post is that Psalms 146:4-5 does NOT tell us that “thoughts perish”. The concept of ceasing deliberations and ceasing interactions with other mortals and ceasing discussions and plans for mortality can certainly be made, but the term does not refer to ceasing thought or ceasing cognition.
Kolibri, I hope your journey is good.
Clear
ειφιειω
P.S. I believe you are perfectly correct that originally, the words for "soul" and "spirit" were not the same thing at all.
One difficulty is that translations have often interchanged these words so that they lost some textual distinction over time (as did many other terms). If the Massorah demonstrates anything, it is that the Jewish texts in their many versions were just as contaminated and confused and error prone as the Christian texts themselves became. Since there are no originals of either sets, I do not see a way to clarify and fix the texts at this point.
The Massorites who created the Textus Recepus expressed the a tradition that when Elias came, he would correct errors in the Jewish texts. I hope they are correct in this belief and that he'll correct christian texts as well.
Last edited: