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Somewant to help me decipher this?

dust1n

Zindīq
Camus' The Fall

"I lived consequently without any other continuity than that, from day to day, of I, I,I. From day to day women, from day to day virtue or vice, from day to day, like dogs—but every day myself secure at my post. Thus I progressed on the surface of life, in the realm of words as it were, never in reality. All those books barely read, those friends barely loved, those cities barely visited, those women barely possessed! I went through the gestures out of boredom or absentmindedness. Then came human beings; they wanted to cling, but there was nothing to cling to, and that was unfortunate—for them. As for me, I forgot. I never remembered anything but myself.

Gradually, however, my memory returned. Or rather, I returned to it, and in it I found the recollection that was awaiting me. But before telling you of it, allow me, mon cher compatriote, to give you a few examples (they will be useful to you, I am sure) of what I discovered in the course of my exploration. One day in my car when I was slow in making a getaway at the green light while our patient fellow citizens immediately began honking furiously behind me, I suddenly remembered another occasion set in similar circumstances. A motorcycle ridden by a spare little man wearing spectacles and plus fours had gone around me and planted itself in front of me at the red light.

As he came to a stop the little man had stalled his motor and was vainly striving to revive it. When the light changed, I asked him with my usual courtesy to take his motorcycle out of my way so I might pass. The little man was getting irritable over his wheezy motor. Hence he replied, according to the rules of Parisian courtesy, that I could go climb a tree. I insisted, still polite, but with a slight shade of impatience in my voice. I was immediately told that in any case I could go straight to hell. Meanwhile several horns began to be heard behind me. With greater firmness I begged my interlocutor to be polite and to realize that he was blocking traffic. The irascible character, probably exasperated by the now evident ill will of his motor, informed me that if I wanted what he called a thorough dusting off he would gladly give it to me. Such cynicism filled me with a healthy rage and I got out of my car with the intention of thrashing this coarse individual. I don’t think I am cowardly (but what doesn’t one think!); I was a head taller than my adversary and my muscles have always been reliable. I still believe the dusting off would have been received rather than given. But I had hardly set foot on the pavement when from the gathering crowd a man stepped forth, rushed at me, assured me that I was the lowest of the low and that he would not allow me to strike a man who had a motorcycle between his legs and hence was at a disadvantage. I turned toward this musketeer and, in truth, didn’t even see him. Indeed, hardly had I turned my head when, almost simultaneously, I heard the motorcycle begin popping again and received a violent blow on the ear. Before I had the time to register what had happened, the motorcycle rode away. Dazed, I mechanically walked toward d’Artagnan when, at the same moment, an exasperated concert of horns rose from the now considerable line of vehicles. The light was changing to green. Then, still somewhat bewildered, instead of giving a drubbing to the idiot who had addressed me, I docilely returned to my car and drove off. As I passed, the idiot greeted me with a “poor dope” that I still recall. A totally insignificant story, in your opinion? Probably. Still it took me some time to forget it, and that’s what counts. Yet I had excuses. I had let myself be beaten without replying, but I could not be accused of cowardice. Taken by surprise, addressed from both sides, I had mixed everything up and the horns had put the finishing touch to my embarrassment. Yet I was unhappy about this as if I had violated the code of honor. I could see myself getting back into my car without a reaction, under the ironic gaze of a crowd especially delighted because, as I recall, I was wearing a very elegant blue suit. I could hear the “poor dope” which, in spite of everything, struck me as justified. In short, I had collapsed in public. As a result of a series of circumstances, to be sure, but there are always circumstances. As an afterthought I clearly saw what I should have done. I saw myself felling d’Artagnan with a good hook to the jaw, getting back into my car, pursuing the monkey who had struck me, overtaking him, jamming his machine against the curb, taking him aside, and giving him the licking he had fully deserved. With a few variants, I ran off this little film a hundred times in my imagination. But it was too late, and for several days I chewed a bitter resentment."



Seems like an example of the the ego being chipped away. Is public humiliation the key to humility in correspondence with one's own sense of morals, or is there a metaphysical system that implies humiliation? This example seems to imply that empathy comes from experience, not from God.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
First portion is recognition of the superficial nature of lives and our acceptance of such insubstantial explanations as being meaningful when in fact they are not. Meaning is not found in words or pasted on billboards, but in the correlation between concept and reality. Forgetting this was this actor's first step towards apathetic resignation to a robotic existence devoid of connection.

The example itself has many potential meanings (isomorphic relations with reality), but the one that speaks to me as I currently am is that we do not choose to the meaning we derive, rather in a way it "chooses us." Our experiences do not automatically portend lessons or connections to those around us, but we can come to understand that those are necessary for the meaningful life. Ultimately you fall in order to stand back up and in standing back up you learn the value being in the position of standing up.

An epistemic limitation on morality perhaps... We can't learn the value of moral behavior until we can conceive of the framework in which it applies (requires "scope"), and this is accomplished through relating outcomes to various other situations. Public humiliation is one consequence that may reinforce the avoidance of certain behaviors. But it is not until the connection between "I perform X action and achieve Y negative outcome" is made that morality is in force.

MTF
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Our experiences do not automatically portend lessons or connections to those around us, but we can come to understand that those are necessary for the meaningful life. Ultimately you fall in order to stand back up and in standing back up you learn the value being in the position of standing up.

Thank you for your response! It was extremely insightful and well written.

'Ultimate you fall... in the position of standing up.'

Never thought about it on those terms, but I think you captured of a lot of the passage's essence much better than I could have.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If he doesn't consider the realm of words to be the realm of reality, then words describe nothing.
 

ManTimeForgot

Temporally Challenged
Words do not hold meaning; that does not mean that words describe nothing. Such a claim is made when a step is skipped in understanding the issue. Examine the barest of symbols (in the English language at least): that of the letter "I." By itself "I" is either a letter indicating the person who conveyed this "message" wished the reader to make the sound we know is associated with "I." The other option is that the conveyor of the "message" wished the reader to reference their self. But it is not in reading a symbol or making a sound that meaning is found.

If I show 1+1=2 to 10,000 people never shown numerical symbols, then 9,999 are not going to know what it means. I + I = II would certainly make things easier, even without knowledge of what the + and = signs mean there is still a good chance of misconception. = could mean "less than or equal to" or "greater than or equal to" and the statement would still be correct. It is in being able to setup a mental reflection of the real world that meaning is accomplished. "I" has meaning because we attribute meaning to it. That meaning is the self-referential meaning of referring to one's self. That is just the surface of what is being conveyed. For those who don't look at the deeper levels of meaning and are just content to "float" about their lives how often do we really end up with meaningful and deep connections with anything around us (let alone people)? We create meaning within ourselves; the fact that we can be taught to do so (ala language) does not mean that the meaning was in the words to begin with.

And this lesson can be generalized to all of life. If we do not desire to find or have meaning in relation to something, then it has no meaning. Quetzalcoatl looks like a nonsense string of letters to someone who is 5 years old; "You just made up a word!" But there is an implicit assumption on this hypothetical five year old's part: that I attribute meaning to the sound "Quetzalcoatl." I could have just as easily said "masdgpoihpghsdkgljwert" (well maybe not as easily) and not attributed any meaning to it at all and intended no meaning to be found.

MTF
 
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Werden

Member
Camus and Nietzsche...

I notice a potentially Existntialist theme with your posts, Dust1n? ;)

I have not read any of Camus's works, however I am familiar with the name through reading on Sartre and other areas. "A Very Short Introduction to Existentialism" in 'The Very Short Introduction' series may be a good starting point with further references if this is correct.

I'll ponder on the quote you posted and if I come up with anything productive I'll post it, though it will just be my own interpretation and thoughts.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Hell is other people.

Something I gather from this is how we set ourselves up against the universe: to borrow from Sarte, we see ourselves in relationship to the Other (in this case, the honking cars and adversaries), and find that meaningful experience occurs in recollection. We exist in memories, and it is in memories that morality--all the ought's and should'ves--is born.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Camus and Nietzsche...

I notice a potentially Existntialist theme with your posts, Dust1n? ;)


=D Just for fun. Camus I have read more of than Nietzsche though.

I have not read any of Camus's works, however I am familiar with the name through reading on Sartre and other areas. "A Very Short Introduction to Existentialism" in 'The Very Short Introduction' series may be a good starting point with further references if this is correct.

I'll ponder on the quote you posted and if I come up with anything productive I'll post it, though it will just be my own interpretation and thoughts.

That's all I ask. =]
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I just wanted to add these two following paragraphs.

"Well, when I recovered the recollection of that episode, I realized what it meant. After all, my dream had not stood up to facts. I had dreamed—this was now clear—of being a complete man who managed to make himself respected in his person as well as in his profession. Half Cerdan, half de Gaulle, if you will. In short, I wanted to dominate in all things. This is why I assumed the manner, made a particular point of displaying my physical skill rather than my intellectual gifts. But after having been struck in public without reacting, it was no longer possible for me to cherish that fine picture of myself. If I had been the friend of truth and intelligence I claimed to be, what would that episode have mattered to me? It was already forgotten by those who had witnessed it. I’d have barely accused myself of having got angry over nothing and also, having got angry, of not having managed to face up to the consequences of my anger, for want of presence of mind. Instead of that, I was eager to get my revenge, to strike and conquer. As if my true desire were not to be the most intelligent or most generous creature on earth, but only to beat anyone I wanted, to be the stronger, in short, and in the most elementary way. The truth is that every intelligent man, as you know, dreams of being a gangster and of ruling over society by force alone. As it is not so easy as the detective novels might lead one to believe, one generally relies on politics and joins the cruelest party. What does it matter, after all, if by humiliating one’s mind one succeeds in dominating everyone? I discovered in myself sweet dreams of oppression.

I learned at least that I was on the side of the guilty, the accused, only in exactly so far as their crime caused me no harm. Their guilt made me eloquent because I was not its victim. When I was threatened, I became not only a judge in turn but even more: an irascible master who wanted, regardless of all laws, to strike down the offender and get him on his knees. After that, mon cher compatriote, it is very hard to continue seriously believing one has a vocation for justice and is the predestined defender of the widow and orphan.
 
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