Something to get across in Islam.

[apophenia]

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]

Apparently so.

It takes a lot of classical conditioning to convince people that an enforced belief is their own.

If that quran quote had any integrity - no quran would be required !

No muslim would need to be compelled !

No laws about apostasy, no demands for respect, no 5-times-per-day conditioning sessions.

500 mcg of *** will undo that in 30 minutes.

Which is why all Psychopathic Manipulators, be they atheist or religious, are terrified of ***

 

[TashaN]

It's from a quote from a Muslim user I once knew and hoped that it'll clear up some things as well as enlighten people about it. It was mostly about apostasy in Islam

"
"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]

Apostasy is a topic that can get confusing, especially since in Islam it's not merely the change of ones religion. In the Qur'an for example, it is stated over and over again that there is no compulsion in religion. You simply are not allowed to make someone believe against their will. (I gave one example above, there are others I can share if anyone is interested)

The topic of rejecting religion after being a believer is also mentioned in the Qur'an, but not once is a worldly punishment prescribed for it. For example one verse states:

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

As you can see it talks about disbelieving after believing over and over again but it never talks about punishing those people in this life. Actually, if people were killed for merely leaving the religion, how can they believe and disbelieve then believe and disbelieve again? Wouldn't they be already dead?

The confusion actually comes from a number of saying by Muhammad about people committing ridda and that they are to be executed. Thing is these sayings were about people who didn't just leave the religion, but they also joined the other side which was fighting Muslims at the time. (In early Islamic history Muslims were persecuted against by the Arab Pagans) In some of these sayings it becomes more clear that it's not just someone who leaves the religion, but someone who acts against the nation. In short, it's someone committing treason in terms we use today.

So as you can say, if you combine the fact that the Qur'an itself speaks against compulsion in matters of religion, with knowing a bit of history behind these sayings it becomes clear that there is no execution for the mere leaving of Islam. And God knows best, of course

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]"

True, there is no compulsion in religion.

 

[YmirGF]

True, there is no compulsion in religion.

This looks good on the marketing brochures, TashaN, but there most certainly is compulsion in religion. Pretending that there is no compulsion is simply not supported by reality. Are you perhaps meaning this as an ideal?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

True, there is no compulsion in religion.

It's true there is none. If one looks at the Quran and history, it's stated quite clear that one can't force-convert others. Most Muslims don't anyway. I'd rather get my information for the Quran itself rather than listening to a few "scholars" with their own agenda. or listening to the news which is unfair and biased anyway.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This looks good on the marketing brochures, TashaN, but there most certainly is compulsion in religion. Pretending that there is no compulsion is simply not supported by reality..

What's reality? If Almighty God in the Quran says one thing, and mankind does another, why attribute it to Islam?

Yes .. you've already quoted hadith regards apostacy .. did you not 'hear' the reply?
ie. the punishment is for treason, not non-belief in itself

 

[YmirGF]

Yes .. you've already quoted hadith regards apostacy .. did you not 'hear' the reply?
ie. the punishment is for treason, not non-belief in itself

The problem with this is how Muslims interpret "treason" as Islam is not a state. In theory this treason is in delicate balance with zealousness. Some may find an apostate's actions heinous and worthy of death, whereas other Muslims might not think it too bad. I guess it all comes down to who is making the ruling.

 

[TashaN]

The problem with this is how Muslims interpret "treason" as Islam is not a state. In theory this treason is in delicate balance with zealousness. Some may find an apostate's actions heinous and worthy of death, whereas other Muslims might not think it too bad. I guess it all comes down to who is making the ruling.

The court.

 

[YmirGF]

The court.

And it depends on how zealous the court is...

 

[icehorse]

Except it's not the same thing. Islam itself is not the threat.

The extremists are. I don't know why that's difficult for others to understand.

I agree that there are relatively few extremists. How about 500 million Islamists? Those Muslims who think Sharia should be the law of the land?

 

[icehorse]

I was deeply moved recently when Godobeyer linked me to a video of the Syrian army fighting ISIS.

I can see that ordinary muslims get blitzkreiged by degenerate thugs with heavy weapons, who read copies of "The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jihad" or whatever. Backed by paranational zillionaires with agendas, and arms dealers, most likely.

...

I agreed with most of your post. But if you haven't skimmed through the Quran, I'd encourage you to do so. Actually, all you have to do is read - randomly - every 20th or 30th page. It's extremely redundant.

The reason I say this is because while most Muslims are peaceful, their scripture really is a "Guide to Jihad".

 

[icehorse]

I believe people often quote the Quran out of context and Muslims have gotten more flak than they deserve. I wouldn't listen to the news as much since the majority of the time, they are unfair biased. If anyone is to wonder what kind of people they are, the best way is to experience it by actually meeting some Muslims and of course reading the Quran in detail helps a lot, as there's quite a few good sayings in there that people have either overlooked or ignored.

I really don't like it when people say" Well I know not ALL Muslims are bad." and yet they'll ACT like they despise all of the Muslims or Buddhists or whatever. It's just childish at best.

And of course some people like to group Muslims together as if they are all one and the same. Islam has branches like just about every other religion. Not all of them have the same beliefs, practices, ect. Sufism is one of the more spiritual more lenient branches and isn't as political there. Wahhabism however is rather strict and extreme and can sometimes be outright dangerous in many areas. A lot of Saudi Arabians are Wahhabists.

I have nothing against peaceful people. But Islamic scripture is violent and intolerant. It's a good thing that most Muslims don't pay real attention to their scripture. so when you say that there are "quite a few good sayings", I think you have to do MASSIVE cherry picking to find those few good sayings in a sea of intolerance and violence.

 

[icehorse]

True, there is no compulsion in religion.

Tell that to women in Pakistan.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I have nothing against peaceful people. But Islamic scripture is violent and intolerant. It's a good thing that most Muslims don't pay real attention to their scripture. so when you say that there are "quite a few good sayings", I think you have to do MASSIVE cherry picking to find those few good sayings in a sea of intolerance and violence.

Yeah that makes sense...Because the Torah and New Testament never had violent messed up stuff, right? Why is it that people will overlook those messed up passages in those books, but in the Quran, people pay so much attention to that and give flak to Muslims even though people haven't given as much flak to the Christians and Jews for their messed up verses...Real consistent.

But all 3 books have great peaceful sayings. Some verses are however misinterpreted and we think it means this even though it actually meant something else. One has to do history as well, not just read these books.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah that makes sense...Because the Torah and New Testament never had violent messed up stuff, right? Why is it that people will overlook those messed up passages in those books, but in the Quran, people pay so much attention to that and give flak to Muslims even though people haven't given as much flak to the Christians and Jews for their messed up verses...Real consistent.

But all 3 books have great peaceful sayings. Some verses are however misinterpreted and we think it means this even though it actually meant something else. One has to do history as well, not just read these books.

I didn't compare the Quran to other scripture - I'm not a fan of other scripture either. Most six-year-olds could cook up a better set of commandments than those in the Bible.

And no, I disagree concerning history. These books claim to be perfect. They set a high bar for themselves. While I have studied the history, I think the claim that one "has to do history" undercuts the very claim that these are perfect books.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I didn't compare the Quran to other scripture - I'm not a fan of other scripture either. Most six-year-olds could cook up a better set of commandments than those in the Bible.

And no, I disagree concerning history. These books claim to be perfect. They set a high bar for themselves. While I have studied the history, I think the claim that one "has to do history" undercuts the very claim that these are perfect books.

The books themselves are not perfect but it may be perfect for someone wanting to practice a faith like that. Of course that doesn't make them perfect either.

How many religions have people that claim that their path is the best path? This doesn't apply to Abrahamic faiths either. I don't see them as true path, I see all religious paths that have you lead a decent moral life will lead you to a good afterlife. People have different ways of achieving enlightenment, but it doesn't mean their path is wrong just because they do a few different things than you do.

 

[icehorse]

The books themselves are not perfect but it may be perfect for someone wanting to practice a faith like that. Of course that doesn't make them perfect either.

How many religions have people that claim that their path is the best path? This doesn't apply to Abrahamic faiths either. I don't see them as true path, I see all religious paths that have you lead a decent moral life will lead you to a good afterlife. People have different ways of achieving enlightenment, but it doesn't mean their path is wrong just because they do a few different things than you do.

I never said anything about people's paths, and I agree that there are many fine paths. What I am specifically criticizing is the claim that billions of people make that they have a magic book that's perfect. Good books can change your life. None of them are perfect or magical.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Of course some people back then and even today will have the "our group is right and everyone else is wrong" mentality" I don't think Muslims will claim the book is perfect. Even Jews and Christians have pointed out flaws in their book. But they may say the book is perfect for them.

 

[apophenia]

Yeah that makes sense...Because the Torah and New Testament never had violent messed up stuff, right?

They are full of messed up stuff.

Stuff that intelligent people long ago rejected.

Why is it that people will overlook those messed up passages in those books, but in the Quran, people pay so much attention to that and give flak to Muslims even though people haven't given as much flak to the Christians and Jews for their messed up verses...Real consistent.

The western christian-based world rejected all that rubbish.

Now we are asking muslims to do the same.

But they are much more recalcitrant - because their conditioning process is so powerful.

 

[TashaN]

Tell that to women in Pakistan.

The same can be said about any system which is being abused. You need to separate between Islam and the action of some individual Muslims, or some corrupted politicians who want to use Islam for their means.

 

[TashaN]

And it depends on how zealous the court is...

Really, is this your best argument?