Some Sunday Questions for Christians

[AlexanderG]

1. If there are two possible worlds, one where only a perfect god exists who lacks for nothing, and another one that contains this god and also sin, corruption, non-believers, and infinite suffering, which world do you think is better? Why would a god create this way, rather than just choose not to create?

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will? If this god had an infinite number of ways to create someone, and knew how each way would turn out, and chose a specific way to create that person, then how can any choice that person makes go against god's foreknowledge? God chose in advance all the choices you would make. Doesn't god choosing and knowing exactly how your life will play out mean that your life is completely deterministic? How can a person be deserving of punishment if they are created in this way?

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

4. If a being demands to be worshipped, and hurts everyone who doesn't worship it, how does it actually deserve to be worshipped (by which I mean "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration")? How can you freely choose to adore someone because otherwise they'll hurt you?

5. On a related note: How can you fear someone that you love? How is being afraid of someone in any way compatible with love? Doesn't this sound unhealthy and abusive?

6. If a group of people wronged me, and the only way I could forgive them was to first take my child (who had nothing to do with the situation) and torture and kill them, making sure plenty of blood was spilled, then what would people think about me and my character? How should people really feel about a god who does this?

7. How could "sin" bother a perfect god? How could anything bother a being that is perfectly content, loving, and forgiving? What use, what benefit, would such a god gain from being worshipped? Is it missing something that it can only get from us, and if so then how could it be perfect unto itself?

8. How can someone be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice, and so these two concepts are logical contradictions.

 

[Magical Wand]

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will? If this god had an infinite number of ways to create someone, and knew how each way would turn out, and chose a specific way to create that person, then how can any choice that person makes go against god's foreknowledge? God chose in advance all the choices you would make. Doesn't god choosing and knowing exactly how your life will play out mean that your life is completely deterministic

That's a though one. I think the standard apologetical response is to say that God knowing the future isn't the same as causing it. The choice is free in the sense that it is not influenced by external causal factors.

How can a person be deserving of punishment if they are created in this way?

Well, that's not too different from the compatibilist account. Supposing naturalism is true, we also don't have freedom as is defined by libertarians (not in the political sense). That is, metaphysically speaking, we couldn't have done otherwise given the deterministic nature of the universe (btw, it is useless to appeal to quantum non-determinism for several reasons). Therefore, whatever answer you give to the question of punishment in the compatibilist account, can be given to the theistic account.

 

[PureX]

AlexanderG, asks:

1. If there are two possible worlds, one where only a perfect god exists who lacks for nothing, and another one that contains this god and also sin, corruption, non-believers, and infinite suffering, which world do you think is better? Why would a god create this way, rather than just choose not to create?

If you can't answer a question for which you had to invent the parameters, why ask it?

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will?

We are not God. So maybe we just think we have free will.

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

Perhaps God loved that person so much that he gave him the gift of being even knowing that the person would 'blow it'. But again, you are asking questions for which you are creating the conundrum. Why?

4. If a being demands to be worshipped, and hurts everyone who doesn't worship it, how does it actually deserve to be worshipped (by which I mean "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration")? How can you freely choose to adore someone because otherwise they'll hurt you?

We human do this sort of thing all the time. We worship the power that can destroy us because it can destroy us. What we really worship is the idea of having that kind of control over our own lives, I think. What humans want more than anything else is control over the conditions and circumstances of their own lives.

5. On a related note: How can you fear someone that you love?

We don't. We fear losing them, and the pain that would result. We fear not being in control of that outcome. That's why love is 'scary' for us.

6. If a group of people wronged me, and the only way I could forgive them was to first take my child (who had nothing to do with the situation) and torture and kill them, making sure plenty of blood was spilled, then what would people think about me and my character? How should people really feel about a god who does this?

Are you referring to a story? It was just a story. Relax.

7. How could "sin" bother a perfect god?

How could it NOT?

What use, what benefit, would such a god gain from being worshipped?

Humans don't worship their gods for their god's benefit. They do it for their own.

8. How can someone be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice, and so these two concepts are logical contradictions.

They are only contradictory if you perceive 'justice' as vengeance. Otherwise, you would realized that there is no justice without mercy.

 

[AlexanderG]

That's a though one. I think the standard apologetical response is to say that God knowing the future isn't the same as causing it. The choice is free in the sense that it is not influenced by external causal factors.



Well, that's not too different from the compatibilist account. Supposing naturalism is true, we also don't have freedom as is defined by libertarians (not in the political sense). That is, metaphysically speaking, we couldn't have done otherwise given the deterministic nature of the universe (btw, it is useless to appeal to quantum non-determinism for several reasons). Therefore, whatever answer you give to the question of punishment in the compatibilist account, can be given to the theistic account.

Thanks for the reply, and raising the objections. I do think both objections are defeated when you introduce omnipotence into the equation.

If god had an infinite array of future possibilities to choose from, including not creating anything, and then chose a specific future out of that array, then I see this as functionally equivalent to causing this future to manifest.

I don't think we have libertarian free will. However, we can still functionally punish certain people because of the limitations imposed on us by reality. If the brains of certain individuals (personality, inclinations, set of memories) predispose them to perform antisocial behavior due to external influences that would not cause most other people to perform this antisocial behavior, then we can justify sequestering the antisocial people from society. We're determined to protect ourselves, after all. If we had omnipotent power, though, we could snap our fingers and remove these predispositions, or create these people differently in the first place, or cause a forcefield to appear around them every time they tried to hurt someone or destroy property. In that scenario, I can see no need to choose punishment beyond the sadistic enjoyment of unnecessary suffering. And that was my point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's a though one. I think the standard apologetical response is to say that God knowing the future isn't the same as causing it. The choice is free in the sense that it is not influenced by external causal factors.

They often say that, but knowing the future still removes the possibility of free will and choice as we can only act in a way that leads to a preordained future that is already known.

 

[AlexanderG]

AlexanderG, asks:

1. If there are two possible worlds, one where only a perfect god exists who lacks for nothing, and another one that contains this god and also sin, corruption, non-believers, and infinite suffering, which world do you think is better? Why would a god create this way, rather than just choose not to create?

If you can't answer a question for which you had to invent the parameters, why ask it?

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will?

We are not God. So maybe we just think we have free will.

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

Perhaps God loved that person so much that he gave him the gift of being even knowing that the person would 'blow it'. But again, you are asking questions for which you are creating the conundrum. Why?

4. If a being demands to be worshipped, and hurts everyone who doesn't worship it, how does it actually deserve to be worshipped (by which I mean "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration")? How can you freely choose to adore someone because otherwise they'll hurt you?

We human do this sort of thing all the time. We worship the power that can destroy us because it can destroy us. What we really worship is the idea of having that kind of control over our own lives, I think. What humans want more than anything else is control over the conditions and circumstances of their own lives.

5. On a related note: How can you fear someone that you love?

We don't. We fear losing them, and the pain that would result. We fear not being in control of that outcome. That's why love is 'scary' for us.

6. If a group of people wronged me, and the only way I could forgive them was to first take my child (who had nothing to do with the situation) and torture and kill them, making sure plenty of blood was spilled, then what would people think about me and my character? How should people really feel about a god who does this?

Are you referring to a story? It was just a story. Relax.

7. How could "sin" bother a perfect god?

How could it NOT?

What use, what benefit, would such a god gain from being worshipped?

Humans don't worship their gods for their god's benefit. They do it for their own.

8. How can someone be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice, and so these two concepts are logical contradictions.

They are only contradictory if you perceive 'justice' as vengeance. Otherwise, you would realized that there is no justice without mercy.

I don't find your answers satisfying at all. You avoided addressing the ideas laid out in my questions through a series of different evasion strategies.

And I find your last answer very curious. Justice is receiving the outcome laid out for you by the law or by some other moral system. Mercy is the suspension of that outcome. It is a direct contradiction and so you have it backwards. There is no justice with mercy. Maybe you need to define these terms as you understand them?

 

[Magical Wand]

Thanks for the reply, and raising the objections. I do think both objections are defeated when you introduce omnipotence into the equation.

If god had an infinite array of future possibilities to choose from, including not creating anything, and then chose a specific future out of that array, then I see this as functionally equivalent to causing this future to manifest.

I don't think we have libertarian free will. However, we can still functionally punish certain people because of the limitations imposed on us by reality. If the brains of certain individuals (personality, inclinations, set of memories) predispose them to perform antisocial behavior due to external influences that would not cause most other people to perform this antisocial behavior, then we can justify sequestering the antisocial people from society. We're determined to protect ourselves, after all. If we had omnipotent power, though, we could snap our fingers and remove these predispositions, or create these people differently in the first place, or cause a forcefield to appear around them every time they tried to hurt someone or destroy property. In that scenario, I can see no need to choose punishment beyond the sadistic enjoyment of unnecessary suffering. And that was my point.

Yeah, I think you're right. I'll have to think more about it. ㅤ:）

 

[PureX]

I don't find your answers satisfying at all. You avoided addressing the ideas laid out in my questions through a series of different evasion strategies.

I addressed your quetions honestly. That's all I can do.

I think the factor that you're missing, here, is that we are not omnipotent, omnipresent, nor omniscient. So we really have no idea what a being with such traits would think, do, or even how they could 'exist'. So asking for justifications based on our own blind speculations seems a waste of time, to me. And an act of both ignorance and hubris.

And I find your last answer very curious. Justice is receiving the outcome laid out for you by the law or by some other moral system. Mercy is the suspension of that outcome. It is a direct contradiction and so you have it backwards. There is no justice with mercy. Maybe you need to define these terms as you understand them?

As I stated, you don't appear to understand what justice is. Justice is not the application of punishment. It's an attempt at determining responsibility by considering all the mitigating conditions and circumstances (i.e., mercy). Societies in the past have neglected the consideration of mercy at their peril, as their systems of administering justice were brutal, irrational, unevenly applied, and ultimately destructive to their own societies. Which is why we take great pains in our culture to temper justice with mercy in every reasonable way possible. And to err on the side of mercy in the face of doubt or mitigating factors.

 

[AlexanderG]

I addressed your quetions honestly. That's all I can do.

I think the factor that you're missing, here, is that we are not omnipotent, omnipresent, nor omniscient. So we really have no idea what a being with such traits would think, do, or even how they could 'exist'. So asking for justifications based on our own blind speculations seems a waste of time, to me. And an act of both ignorance and hubris.
As I stated, you don't appear to understand what justice is. Justice is not the application of punishment. It's an attempt at determining responsibility by considering all the mitigating conditions and circumstances (i.e., mercy). Societies in the past have neglected the consideration of mercy at their peril, as their systems of administering justice were brutal, irrational, unevenly applied, and ultimately destructive to their own societies. Which is why we take great pains in our culture to temper justice with mercy in every reasonable way possible. And to err on the side of mercy in the face of doubt or mitigating factors.

Fair enough, and I don't know exactly what form of Christianity and god you believe in, but I'm using a very common set of properties that this god is claimed to possess.

I think your point that god is beyond our understanding or judgement is a poor apologetic. Just as it gives a blanket excuse for the Christian god's apparent imperfections, it could equally be used to excuse or justify the actions of an evil, malicious god, or a deceptive prankster god. When a good and perfect god is indistinguishable from an evil god, then you've got problems.

And if I did things that you found morally horrific, or that went directly against how I told others to behave, then I don't think you would find it satisfying if I told you that you just didn't understand and were being ignorant and prideful to judge me. A being having the power to create a universe does not entail moral perfection, at all, and I see no need to believe anonymous arbitrary claims that it's morally perfect, especially given clear evidence to the contrary.

You've described justice and mercy as humans imperfectly employ them. I'm not talking about that. A being of perfect justice would never need to merely "attempt to determine responsibility," do anything "in the face of doubt," "err on the side of mercy" or "neglect the consideration of mercy at its peril" because it would give everyone the outcome they perfectly deserve under its system. All factors, considerations, circumstances, and gray areas would be perfectly accounted for. There would be no room for mercy whatsoever. Mercy arises from a recognition that sometimes applying justice to the letter is inappropriate given certain unusual circumstances. An omnipotent, omniscient being would never have cause to account for such limitations. Again, there could be no perfect mercy because it would contradict perfect justice. Such a god could either employ one or the other, but never both.

 

[InChrist]

1. If there are two possible worlds, one where only a perfect god exists who lacks for nothing, and another one that contains this god and also sin, corruption, non-believers, and infinite suffering, which world do you think is better? Why would a god create this way, rather than just choose not to create?

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will? If this god had an infinite number of ways to create someone, and knew how each way would turn out, and chose a specific way to create that person, then how can any choice that person makes go against god's foreknowledge? God chose in advance all the choices you would make. Doesn't god choosing and knowing exactly how your life will play out mean that your life is completely deterministic? How can a person be deserving of punishment if they are created in this way?

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

4. If a being demands to be worshipped, and hurts everyone who doesn't worship it, how does it actually deserve to be worshipped (by which I mean "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration")? How can you freely choose to adore someone because otherwise they'll hurt you?

5. On a related note: How can you fear someone that you love? How is being afraid of someone in any way compatible with love? Doesn't this sound unhealthy and abusive?

6. If a group of people wronged me, and the only way I could forgive them was to first take my child (who had nothing to do with the situation) and torture and kill them, making sure plenty of blood was spilled, then what would people think about me and my character? How should people really feel about a god who does this?

7. How could "sin" bother a perfect god? How could anything bother a being that is perfectly content, loving, and forgiving? What use, what benefit, would such a god gain from being worshipped? Is it missing something that it can only get from us, and if so then how could it be perfect unto itself?

8. How can someone be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice, and so these two concepts are logical contradictions.

1. God created the world and human beings as He did because Freedom is important. There can be no real love if there is not freedom to choose. According to the scriptures, this world and the suffering here and now is not infinite and is not God’s ultimate will or design for anyone.

2.God knowing the future or the choices a person makes does not mean God programmed, forced or determined those choices. So knowing does not inhibit freewill.

3.According to the Bible, hell or the lake of fire was not created for human beings, but for satan and the demons. God’s desire is that all humans would choose an eternity of love, joy, and beauty with Him... since that is what we were created for. Those who prefer to choose and follow satan, sadly end up where he does; separated from God and all that is good.

4-5. God does not threaten. He warns out of love, as a parent warns a child not to touch a hot stove, run into the street, use illicit and dangerous drugs, etc.

6, Your analogy fails because God is not a human torturing his human child in order to somehow save others. The Son of God is God who became flesh by His own will to save humanity. He chose to go to the cross and pay the penalty for all human sin. He was not tortured by anyone other than those who put Him on the cross. Nevertheless, since He purposefully went to the cross for all human sin, it was our sins, yours and mine that created the need for His sacrificial payment and actually caused His suffering.

7. Sin bothers God because God is Good and Holy. Sin falls short of perfect goodness. It is harmful and damaging. God is an eternal Self-existent Being that knows complete and perfect love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God does not need us or our worship. He created people to share and live in His love. We are the ones that need to worship God.

8. God can show perfect justice and mercy because He is God and bore the justice within Himself, carrying the weight as only He is able and therefore able to show mercy.

 

[Magical Wand]

here can be no real love if there is not freedom to choose.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean, but I don't "choose" to love anyone. At least in my case, love is something that arises if the necessary and sufficient conditions are present; it is determined by these conditions. It seems absurd that one morning I could wake up and say "You know what? I'll choose to stop loving my family members". I simply couldn't do it because it is beyond my power.

 

[PureX]

Fair enough, and I don't know exactly what form of Christianity and god you believe in, but I'm using a very common set of properties that this god is claimed to possess.

Yes, but keep in mind that a foundational principal of Christianity (Judaism, as well) is the incomprehensible and inexplicable nature of "God". In fact, the words used to refer to "God" were derived from various expressions of this profoundly inexplicable nature.

I realize that not all religious Christians are fully aware of this aspect of the religion they presume to follow, and so sometimes speak as if they know all about God, but their misconceptions ought not to be our concern.

I think your point that god is beyond our understanding or judgement is a poor apologetic. Just as it gives a blanket excuse for the Christian god's apparent imperfections, it could equally be used to excuse or justify the actions of an evil, malicious god, or a deceptive prankster god. When a good and perfect god is indistinguishable from an evil god, then you've got problems.

Well, it's not an 'apologetic' response. It's a simple fact. None of us knows what or if 'God' exists, because none of us knows what such an existence would even look like. How would/could the 'source, sustenance, and purpose of all that is', exist prior to or apart from existence, itself? It's a question that we cannot possibly answer. And we couldn't validate an answer even if it were to present itself. 'God' is a possibility that can only be engaged through hope. And through putting that hope into action: faith.

And if I did things that you found morally horrific, or that went directly against how I told others to behave, then I don't think you would find it satisfying if I told you that you just didn't understand and were being ignorant and prideful to judge me. A being having the power to create a universe does not entail moral perfection, at all, and I see no need to believe anonymous arbitrary claims that it's morally perfect, especially given clear evidence to the contrary.

I see no reason to believe that, either, unless in doing so you find that your experience of being is significantly improved by it. Personally, I 'believe in' very little. As a limited human I find it to be more reasonable and honest to remain skeptical about a great many such pronouncements. But I also recognize that skepticism can become a kind of belief system of it's own. One that needs to be avoided just as surely as the others.

You've described justice and mercy as humans imperfectly employ them. I'm not talking about that. A being of perfect justice would never need to merely "attempt to determine responsibility," do anything "in the face of doubt," "err on the side of mercy" or "neglect the consideration of mercy at its peril" because it would give everyone the outcome they perfectly deserve under its system.

But we humans have no idea what "perfection" is, or what it looks like. Or even that it exists at all as anything more than a fantasy ideal in our own minds. (Same as with "God".) So our proclaiming to know such a thing is a bit foolish, don't you think? Even if we are only doing so to then argue with the proposition coming from others. Same goes for our other fantastical ideals, like justice, equality, eternity, and infinity. These are ideals we humans hold to based on our hope for their existence, not on our ability to know they exist.

 

[InChrist]

I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean, but I don't "choose" to love anyone. At least in my case, love is something that arises if the necessary and sufficient conditions are present; it is determined by these conditions. It seems absurd that one morning I could wake up and say "You know what? I'll choose to stop loving my family members". I simply couldn't do it because it is beyond my power.

What exactly does this... “if the necessary and sufficient conditions are present“ mean? So if you lived in a country where arranged marriages were the practice, would that be a necessary and sufficient condition for you to love someone?

 

[AlexanderG]

Yes, but keep in mind that a foundational principal of Christianity (Judaism, as well) is the incomprehensible and inexplicable nature of "God".

I'God' is a possibility that can only be engaged through hope. And through putting that hope into action: faith.

But we humans have no idea what "perfection" is, or what it looks like. Or even that it exists at all as anything more than a fantasy ideal in our own minds. (Same as with "God".) So our proclaiming to know such a thing is a bit foolish, don't you think? Even if we are only doing so to then argue with the proposition coming from others. Same goes for our other fantastical ideals, like justice, equality, eternity, and infinity. These are ideals we humans hold to based on our hope for their existence, not on our ability to know they exist.

This was interesting. It sounds like your faith, for you, is wishful thinking that helps you feel good in practice. That's fine I guess, but I just can't operate that way. Maybe it's my temperament, but if I don't know something, then I just say I don't know rather than choosing an appealing speculative position on this unknown and then struggling to believe it for no good reason.

For myself, I want my model of reality to match reality as closely as possible. My opinion is that this will lead to the best outcomes for me in my life. I don't want my wishes to influence my beliefs when it comes to evidence or lack thereof.

And it sounds like you're acknowledging that the unknowable, incomprehensible nature of god entails that you can't actually know god is good, or judge god as good. I'm glad to see a Christian acknowledge this instead of avoiding the question, so thank you for answering plainly.

 

[Magical Wand]

What exactly does this... “if the necessary and sufficient conditions are present“?

It means that the causes are always sufficient for their effects; if the causal factors are present, then the effect must be present, too.

On the libertarian view of freedom, the desire (and other causal factors) isn't sufficient for its effect; the agent must arbitrarily and non-deterministically actualize the effect. That means I may or may not choose to do X and this is true regardless of whether I have the desire to do so, even if the action is in accordance with my moral values and duties (otherwise my actions would be determined by my desires and values and etc).

To simplify, it means that if the environment (say, past and present culture) and the individual have certain properties X, Y and W, then my the feeling of love will obtain necessarily, and I cannot control it.

So if you lived in a country where arranged marriages were the practice, would that be a necessary and sufficient condition for you to love someone?

I don't think so since my culture isn't like that (therefore, my culture partially determined my brain so that the scenario you describe probably wouldn't be sufficient). What follows from that?

 

[AlexanderG]

1. God created the world and human beings as He did because Freedom is important. There can be no real love if there is not freedom to choose. According to the scriptures, this world and the suffering here and now is not infinite and is not God’s ultimate will or design for anyone.

2.God knowing the future or the choices a person makes does not mean God programmed, forced or determined those choices. So knowing does not inhibit freewill.

3.According to the Bible, hell or the lake of fire was not created for human beings, but for satan and the demons. God’s desire is that all humans would choose an eternity of love, joy, and beauty with Him... since that is what we were created for. Those who prefer to choose and follow satan, sadly end up where he does; separated from God and all that is good.

4-5. God does not threaten. He warns out of love, as a parent warns a child not to touch a hot stove, run into the street, use illicit and dangerous drugs, etc.

6, Your analogy fails because God is not a human torturing his human child in order to somehow save others. The Son of God is God who became flesh by His own will to save humanity. He chose to go to the cross and pay the penalty for all human sin. He was not tortured by anyone other than those who put Him on the cross. Nevertheless, since He purposefully went to the cross for all human sin, it was our sins, yours and mine that created the need for His sacrificial payment and actually caused His suffering.

7. Sin bothers God because God is Good and Holy. Sin falls short of perfect goodness. It is harmful and damaging. God is an eternal Self-existent Being that knows complete and perfect love between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. God does not need us or our worship. He created people to share and live in His love. We are the ones that need to worship God.

8. God can show perfect justice and mercy because He is God and bore the justice within Himself, carrying the weight as only He is able and therefore able to show mercy.

Thanks for the thoughts. Here is my response, if you care to read it.

1. But god's ultimate will is for some people to suffer infinitely. Or is god not all powerful and not all knowing?

2. If god knows the future exactly how it will play out, then am I free to choose differently than his foreknowledge indicates, or is it impossible for me to do anything but the choices god foresees? If I am not free to choose otherwise, then I cannot have free will. You can't square this circle.

3. If god wants everyone to choose an eternity of love with him, then why wouldn't he only create the people that he knows with foreknowledge will choose to follow him? By choosing to create people that he knows will "choose and follow Satan," is just creating something that he dislikes to troll himself, or is he intentionally creating people who he knows will suffer infinitely because he's evil? Or is he not all-knowing?

4-5. The difference is that god is supposed to be all-powerful. If I were a god-parent, I wouldn't need to warn my kids not to touch the stove, run into the street, or use dangerous drugs, because I could simply choose to create all of these things so they could not harm my children. Human parents do not have complete control over their environment, but your god supposedly does. Any harm, or possibility of harm, is necessarily intended by design. If I were a parent who put a loaded gun in my toddler's crib and told them not to touch it, I would be a very bad parent.

6. Ok, if I could only forgive someone after I first had myself cut and mutilated, then what would people think of me? It's psychotic. It doesn't make sense. If a god wants to forgive people, then he can just forgive them. He can wave a hand and make sin disappear. Why does there have to be blood magic?

7. This is preaching and I don't see the use in it. I don't see how you can know this about the "unknowable" god, nor is there much to back it up from anything in the bible. I think if you ask many, if not most Christians, they worship god because they're afraid of hell. If there were no hell, then truly what need would there be to be a Christian?

8. God is able to "carry the weight" of logical contradictions? Hm. I'm not seeing how your metaphorical language solves the problem of "P or Not-P."

 

[PureX]

This was interesting. It sounds like your faith, for you, is wishful thinking that helps you feel good in practice. That's fine I guess, but I just can't operate that way.

That's what faith is for all of us: hope in action. And you engage in it just as we all do.

The question is what are you placing your hope in? In the idea that mankind will figure it all out, eventually? In the idea that you will be able to get through whatever troubles befall you by your own wits and strength? In the idea that whatever happens it ultimately doesn't matter, because nothing does?
These are the kinds of questions that drive people to hope in a benevolent, loving, forgiving God. They need to feel that they are not completely on their own. And they need to feel that way to keep moving forward in life, and to keep trying to be good human beings even when they are surrounded by not-so-good ones. It's why people tend to view God as "all-knowing, all-loving, all-forgiving", and so on. It may not be rational from our very limited human perspective, but none of us can prove it wrong, either. So they keep their hope, and they try to keep acting on that hope. And because they do, the world is a little better place to be for all of us.

Maybe it's my temperament, but if I don't know something, then I just say I don't know rather than choosing an appealing speculative position on this unknown and then struggling to believe it for no good reason.

But not knowing isn't good enough when we still have to choose a course of action, and move forward, in spite of our ignorance. We can't just sit still and wait for answers that will never come. In fact, very often the answers that come, come from our taking action whether we can predict the outcome, or not. That's why we humans need faith. Why we need to be able and willing to act on what we hope to be so when there is no way to know that it's so.

For myself, I want my model of reality to match reality as closely as possible. My opinion is that this will lead to the best outcomes for me in my life. I don't want my wishes to influence my beliefs when it comes to evidence or lack thereof.

Who doesn't want that? The problem is that we simply don't possess the ability to obtain that ideal. And so we have to find ways of moving ahead in spite of our delusions and misunderstandings and our outright ignorance. The human condition is a fearful state. And we humans will do almost anything to gain control over our circumstances to alleviate that fear. Even pretending that we "know all the answers" when we clearly do not.

And it sounds like you're acknowledging that the unknowable, incomprehensible nature of god entails that you can't actually know god is good, or judge god as good. I'm glad to see a Christian acknowledge this instead of avoiding the question, so thank you for answering plainly.

Many, many, Christians will gladly acknowledge this. Don't let the idiots among them convince you that they are all idiots. And don't let yourself assume that there are no similar idiots among the non-religious. Because, believe me, they are equally numerous.

 

[Trailblazer]

1. If there are two possible worlds, one where only a perfect god exists who lacks for nothing, and another one that contains this god and also sin, corruption, non-believers, and infinite suffering, which world do you think is better? Why would a god create this way, rather than just choose not to create?

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will? If this god had an infinite number of ways to create someone, and knew how each way would turn out, and chose a specific way to create that person, then how can any choice that person makes go against god's foreknowledge? God chose in advance all the choices you would make. Doesn't god choosing and knowing exactly how your life will play out mean that your life is completely deterministic? How can a person be deserving of punishment if they are created in this way?

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

4. If a being demands to be worshipped, and hurts everyone who doesn't worship it, how does it actually deserve to be worshipped (by which I mean "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration")? How can you freely choose to adore someone because otherwise they'll hurt you?

5. On a related note: How can you fear someone that you love? How is being afraid of someone in any way compatible with love? Doesn't this sound unhealthy and abusive?

6. If a group of people wronged me, and the only way I could forgive them was to first take my child (who had nothing to do with the situation) and torture and kill them, making sure plenty of blood was spilled, then what would people think about me and my character? How should people really feel about a god who does this?

7. How could "sin" bother a perfect god? How could anything bother a being that is perfectly content, loving, and forgiving? What use, what benefit, would such a god gain from being worshipped? Is it missing something that it can only get from us, and if so then how could it be perfect unto itself?

8. How can someone be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice, and so these two concepts are logical contradictions.

Are these questions only for Christians? I think I can answer these from my perspective as a Baha'i who also believes in the Bible but if you only want answers from Christians I don't want to be impolite and respond.

 

[Kenny]

Overall... too many questions with too many inventive and creative possibilities... so I just chose one.

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

Is there real love if one cannot choose? What is your definition of love? Or is this a "puppet on a string" scenario that you want to create?

So let's add to your creative capacity.

Suppose you know that your son will murder 5 people but one of his offspring will invent an antibiotic that will save a million. Would you sacrifice the million knowing that the father would kill 5?

So, if the Creator would create a venue where no one would have to go to hell... is that not a love action? Is the capacity to die for your friends an act of love when the friends were in danger of loosing their lives?

Is the judge "inflicting suffering" when he passes judgment on a murderer?

What is this sounds like is more of creating your own scenario to then tear it apart when the fallacy is that there are more options that what you give.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

1. If there are two possible worlds, one where only a perfect god exists who lacks for nothing, and another one that contains this god and also sin, corruption, non-believers, and infinite suffering, which world do you think is better? Why would a god create this way, rather than just choose not to create?

2. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing, with perfect foreknowledge, then how can we have free will? If this god had an infinite number of ways to create someone, and knew how each way would turn out, and chose a specific way to create that person, then how can any choice that person makes go against god's foreknowledge? God chose in advance all the choices you would make. Doesn't god choosing and knowing exactly how your life will play out mean that your life is completely deterministic? How can a person be deserving of punishment if they are created in this way?

3. If a god is all-powerful and all-knowing with perfect foreknowledge, and chooses to create someone knowing in advance that they will go to hell, does god love that person? If you think so, then how is it possible to define loving someone as "inflicting infinite suffering on someone?"

4. If a being demands to be worshipped, and hurts everyone who doesn't worship it, how does it actually deserve to be worshipped (by which I mean "the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration")? How can you freely choose to adore someone because otherwise they'll hurt you?

5. On a related note: How can you fear someone that you love? How is being afraid of someone in any way compatible with love? Doesn't this sound unhealthy and abusive?

6. If a group of people wronged me, and the only way I could forgive them was to first take my child (who had nothing to do with the situation) and torture and kill them, making sure plenty of blood was spilled, then what would people think about me and my character? How should people really feel about a god who does this?

7. How could "sin" bother a perfect god? How could anything bother a being that is perfectly content, loving, and forgiving? What use, what benefit, would such a god gain from being worshipped? Is it missing something that it can only get from us, and if so then how could it be perfect unto itself?

8. How can someone be perfectly just and perfectly merciful? Mercy is the suspension of justice, and so these two concepts are logical contradictions.

Those are absolutely fabulous questions, and very thoughtful.

I think it’s wonderful you’re asking them.

I could give you answers, but it’s quite an enormous task for my old self.

If I simplified the answers so I’m not writing all night, it would raise even more questions. If I went into detail, it would likely overwhelm you and still raise questions.

I wish we could sit down over some tea and crumpets for an afternoon.
I think we would have some rewarding conversations.

I find talking with atheists much more pleasing than talking with christians.

In general.