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Sin and Redemption....Not Possible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by goraya15, Apr 2, 2005.

  1. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    Hey everyone. I was just wondering if anyone has any answers or similiar beliefs as mine on sin and redemption.

    Most mainstream catholics believe in sin and redemption in the form of their "savior" Jesus Christ. The story goes that God banished Adam and Eve from paradise since they ate the cursed fruit and became aware of their shame. They were thus banished from heaven and sent to earth. As punishment, man was to work for his bread, and women were to give birth in pain. They progeny of Adam and Eve was also infected with sin, so every human after after them was born sinful.

    There are several things wrong with this concept. One of them is a the actual punishment prescribed by God to Man, which seems grossly unproprotionate compared to the sin. Firstly, Adam and Eve were banished. This is the right of God, to punish sin and disobedience. The part that is unbelievable to me is that God would continue to punish Adam and Eve by making mankind compelled to sin from birth, thus punishing them for the sin that they had nothing to do with. It is perposterous to think that an Absolute Just God would punish a son for the sins of the father. In this case, it seems that he has forced the progeny of Adam and Eve (manking) to forever sin so that he can send all of us to Hell for eternity. I ask you, is this the image of a perfect God? Morever, science proves that memories and personal traits cannot be transferred to children. When a child is born, it's personality is a clean slate, so to speak. so how is it possible that the nature to sin was inherited by all of mankind from Adam and Eve, let alone not the nature to do good, As Adam did for the remainder of his life on earth?

    That is a brief covering of the sin part. Now i move onto redemption. It seems that God seemed sorry for the harsh punishment he prescribed. Now, just being able to forgive manking seemed impossible for him. This amounts to unbelief in God as being all-powerful. Wouldn't forgiving mankind have been easier then sending his so-called son to do the "dirty work" for him? Anyway, God seemed to have found a loophole in his punishment. He seemed to have formulated a plan that a sinless person could take on the sins of all of humanity until doomsday. Thus, the sins would have been compensated for, humanity free from an unjust punishment, and God's Absolute Justice left in tact. The only problem is, He had to send the only sinless person left to take on the burden of all mankind. This was his so-called son, Jesus. This also seems like injustice. How can you sentence a person who has not committed any sins to account for all the sins of mankind? Is that fair to all the people that were harmed by other people?

    Let us say now that Jesus did die for the sins of mankind. This would mean that every christian, provided that they believe in him, would have all their sins forgiven for the rest of their lives. If this is true, then murderes, rapists, molesters and other such evil people would get to go to heaven, if they believed in Jesus. Is this justice? Let us say that a Christian murdered a Muslim. The Christian would apparently go unpunished by God since his sins were taken by Jesus. But what of the Muslim. Was him being the victim of a crime of no significance?

    Alright, that seems enough for now. Write back and i will tell you more, and a more believable interpretation of Jesus that is logical does not dispute with human conscience.
     
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  2. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    I'll not defend any religious organization whose history is set in confusion and many ideas which do not line up with what I have learned from the kingdom of Heaven; however, I will explain that the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.



    If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; Whatso ever is born of God does not commit sin for his seed remains in him and he cannot sin.


    Redeemed means bought and paid for. We that are saved are so by the blood of Jesus.

    If that's what Godrequires of me who am I to argue. According to the doctrines of devils in other religions and philosophies much more is required. We are by nature from the moment we are saved insterested in pleasing Him.
     
  3. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Thanks for this post - in answering it, frubals to you for forcing me to think about and study what and why I believe what I do....
    My understanding of most of the story is a bit different than yours.....
    Eden was (is??) a place on Earth, not Heaven. Adam and Eve were totally at peace with God and without sin at first, but since they were created in the image of God, they were given free will, and immortality. Adam
    was told:
    Satan tempted them and they went ahead and ate it anyway. I think this "original sin" did just what is implied in scripture - mankind was made mortal and knowledge of good and evil (sin) was made known.
    I think it's in our nature to do what pleases us, rather than what pleases God. We have to CHOOSE to do what pleases God instead. In my own life, I've found that I need to ask for a lot of help in this department. I'm a selfish person and as much as I want to please God and do the right thing, I am prone to failure :(
    Not at all...
    Again... what I think.... Jesus, as God, made Himself human. He experienced the same temptations, hurts, betrayals and joys that we humans experience. But He didn't give in to those temptations, so was without any sin at all. Nothing we as humans can ever do will be enough to pay for the sins we commit. So in His great mercy, Jesus (as God) took the punishment for us. Is it fair? To us, it is not. But I believe that by taking the punishment for us, and then fulfilling the promise of the Resurrection and the return to eternal life, God is showing us He really DOES care about us and as long as we choose to accept that gift, we are spared the sentence of eternal death. By accepting the gift of life, we are also accepting conviction of the sins we have committed as well as the ones we continue to commit. God knows what's in our hearts. He knows our motives and desires. We must ask for forgiveness and believe that God forgives us (this is a hard one for me - I can accept that all things are possible with God, but I find it impossible to forgive my own self :()
    As a victim of evilness, this is another tough one. It's not my place to judge these people. But as Jesus said:
    So yes, if those evil doers repent, they will be forgiven and go to heaven.
    In my own case.... as I implied above.... for that, I am truly thankful.
     
  4. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    thank for the reply. Anyway, I have some more questions for you based on your answers.
    First of all, you say that Eden was a place on earth. As an Ahmadi Muslim (more info, go to alislam.org) I also believe that Adam and Eve lived on earth. What I don't believe in is that you say that they were both immortal. Based on common knowledge and science, everything that lives must die on this planet. Even if you don't believe that, don't you think that making them immortal would set them up as equals to God? I believe that they were common humans, but specially loved by God, since He spoke to them and showered his blessings on them.

    On your second point, saying that humans do what pleases us the most, i couldn't agree more. But who says what pleases us the most has to be sinful? There are many people that sincerely find the most joy in helping others and doing what God asks us to do. Is it not true that you would help your mother if she was injured, even if you didn't know that it was virtuous to do so in the eyes of God? This proves that man is not born sinful, but, is blessed with compassion by God. It is true that some human desires are evil, but that is where religion comes into play, which teaches us morals.

    On what you said about God being all-powerful, I also agree. I was simply trying to make a point about how errenous i see the views about redemption. You must admit that it would have been a lot easier for God to simply forgive mankind, rather then, as it seems, prove to Himself that He was wrong in punishing mankind by becoming human and living through us to experience our lives. This statement also contradicts that God is All-Knowing. It seems that the more you go into this phenomena of sin and redemption, the more confusion there is.
    Anyway, it seems i got a little carried away. In your statement about how God loves us, I also agree. What i don't agree with is the concept of Trinity that you brought in here. Are you saying that God sacrificed Himself for mankind? This seems kind of extreme, don't you think? That the all-powerful God would sacrifice himself for mankind over a mistake he apparently made. Again, I urge you to read the views of Ahmadi muslims on this point. It makes a lot more sense.

    Here's something else that I just thought of. It seems that Jesus came to this world several thousand years after Adam and Eve did. What was God doing for all this time? Watching with satisfaction all the innocent people that had nothing to do with Adam's sin and most likely didn't even know about it live out their lives for no apparent reason and then just to go to Hell? This seems cruel, and i believe that God can never be cruel. What was the fate of those people that never had the chance of believing in Jesus, just because they died before Jesus appeared on this earth? Are they casualties of war?

    On your statement of how people can be forgiven, i also stand by you in thanking God for His mercy. I find trouble in interpreting the quote you gave though. Is Jesus trying to say that only sinful people perish from this earth? It is a known fact the everyone dies, no matter how good you may have been. Is it not true that Jesus also died? (though i believe he didn't die on the cross, but much later of natural causes.) On your last point, What i was trying to say was that will only christian people be given this opportunity of having all their sins forgiven if they submit to Jesus and believe that he died for their sins? What of the innocent non-christians if they were wronged by the christians? This seems like gross injustice to me, that a wrong-doer be let off the hook because someone else paid the price for their crime, and the victim be left in the cold.

    Anyways, message back if any more comments, views, or questions. Try to visit the site (alislam.org)also.
     
  5. Dr. Khan

    Dr. Khan Member

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    The bible informs us that Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the World was laid . So God foreknew the sin, fall, and consequences of Adam's error. God is still accounting for every particle of dust not only in this world but every particle in existance. Jesus is His Ark for man to enter into to escape Judgment. Did Paul kill anyone after his converson, no; but in paul is the example of grace working to show that he tha sinneth greatly also loveth greatly and when we in our Nation of America see how great our sin is inthe sighr of the lord we too will labor as did Paul. What is our Sin . The same as those who sought to slay Jesus. Those who have rejected his Spirit, for religion and ritual will come to understanding in the day of his wrath which is Sept.11 Ha Ha.
     
  6. goraya15

    goraya15 Member

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    The bible informs us that Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the World was laid (Dr.Khan)

    I don't kno what ur talking about when you say the foundation of the world. Please quote from bible so i can interpret or explain.
     
  7. JesusIsTheWay

    JesusIsTheWay Member

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    It is perposterous to think that an Absolute Just God would punish a son for the sins of the father.

    God does not punish a son for the sins of the father!
    Ezekiel 18:

    The Lord said:
    Ezekiel, I hear the people of Israel using the old saying,
    "Sour grapes eaten by parents leave a sour taste in the mouths of their children."
    Now tell them that I am the LOrd God, and as surely as I live, that saying will no longer be used in Israel. The lives of all people belong to bme - parents as well as children. Only those that sin will be put to death.... Children won't suffer for the sins of their parents, and parents won't suffer for the sins of their children.
    You see, through the sin of Adam and Eve, we are born into a sinful world. Our own sins condemn us. Our own sin is what separates us from God. Adam's original sin brought death into the world and we choose to sin. Yes, we are born into the world as sinners, because we will sin.

    this case, it seems that he has forced the progeny of Adam and Eve (manking) to forever sin so that he can send all of us to Hell for eternity.

    God does not force us to sin. It is our choice!
    James 1:13: "Don't blame God when you are tempted! God cannot be tempted by evil, and He doesn't use evil to tempt others."

    I ask you, is this the image of a perfect God?

    I ask you, what does our sin have to do with God's perfection?!!
    In fact in Isaiah 53 it says that "He [Jesus] was wounded and crushed because of our sins; by taking our punishment, He made us completely well... His life was taken away because of the sinful things we had done... He suffered for our sins and asked God to forgive us."

    Wouldn't forgiving mankind have been easier then sending his so-called son to do the "dirty work" for him?

    First of all there can be no forgiveness without the sheding of blood (Its somewhere in Hebrews if you want the verse I'll find it). This was God's first convent with us (the Law). But nobody can perfectly obey the Law so God sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die for our sins and make a new convent (The new testament, the Last Supper) with us. This way all we need to do is ask for forgiveness and we are saved by the grace of God and not by what we do. God has His perfect standard and He couldn't lower it because that would mean He tolerates sin, or evil. So to accomadate Adam's sin, He sent His Son as the perfect sacrifice (and the last) for our sins. And would you send you son to die for others?

    Let us say now that Jesus did die for the sins of mankind. This would mean that every christian, provided that they believe in him, would have all their sins forgiven for the rest of their lives.

    No, not true. In the Last supper, when Jesus was washing the disicples feet, Peter told Jesus that he was not worthy to have his feet washed by Jesus. Then Jesus said that the only way Peter could have a part of the KIngdom of God he had to get his feet washed. Well Peter then said he wanted to have his arms and head washed too. Jesus said that after you get a bath (your inital salvation) you still need to have your feet washed (repent more then one time). And as a side note, a Christian has to believe in Jesus otherwise He would not be a Christ-ian.

    The Christian would apparently go unpunished by God since his sins were taken by Jesus. :eek:

    It goes either way, if the Christian asked for forgiveness, He would be forgiven. If the Muslem killed a Christian, then converted (which requires asking for forgiveness) then he would be forgiven. Or anybody of any religion. That does not excuse what they did though. That is where our governments act, i.e. they punish the individual.

    What i was trying to say was that will only christian people be given this opportunity of having all their sins forgiven if they submit to Jesus and believe that he died for their sins?

    Romans 10:13 "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved!" :jiggy:

    What of the innocent non-christians if they were wronged by the christians?

    Believe me, Christians wrong other Christians too. :( But anyway, Christians will sin, and probably wrong other people. That is where the Christians must go and ask for forgiveness from the person they wronged. Christ tells us that before we do anything we are to go and ask for forgiveness from the person we wronged (I'll look up the Scripture if you want it). And Christians will be the first to be judged (I'll look that up too if you want).

    *All scripture taken from the CEV version of the Bible.

    - David
    Goodday :D
     
  8. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Kudos to Snow for a very reasoned explanation.

    However, somehow I smell a troll. I wonder if goraya15 really wants to know, or if he's just waiting for the proper time to tell us his side. Sort of a bait and switch. I could be wrong, but it just seems insincere.
     
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  9. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Adam and Eve were not banished from heaven. They were banished from Eden, which was on earth. Just how much do you know about this religion that you think is so flawed?


    You give one interpretation of sin. There are many others, which are not quite so literal.

    First, personality traits are indeed passed on from parents to their children. Our personalities do not start as a "clean slate" or tabla rasa. Your knowledge of science needs to be updated by almost a hundred years.

    Second, original sin is not a memory nor a personality trait. It is a state. If our foreparents damage the environment, we "inherit" the consequences of that damage even tho it is not passed on thru our genes. We inherit the consequences even tho no one is actively punishing us.



    You're forgetting the concept of the trinity. Since you're targeting Catholic ideology, you really have to take all of it into account if you're going to fairly criticize it. Trinity says that the Son and the Father are both the one and same God. Therefore, God did not send down an innocent third-party in order to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity. God sacrificed Himself. And it's not that God was incapable of forgiving humanity without this sacrifce. Rather, the act of incarnation, death and ressurection was necessary to bring humans in relation to God, because of the limitations of humans, not of God.


    This is the first good point that I think you've made. Yes, redemption is a radical concept. It goes against reason. However, unlike what you seem to be implying, I don't think that makes it wrong.

    There is a Muslim saying, which I will paraphrase: God never laughs louder than when seeing the expression on a man's face the first time he sees his murderer in heaven.

    Apparently, Islam agrees with Christianity that there is always room for redemption. Murderers and rapists and such "evil" people can be redeemed. Even Darth Vader is redeemed after a lifetime of evil acts by one act of selflessness. It may not be justice; it is mercy. For some things, such as murder, there can be no true justice in that nothing will make things right again. Without mercy (ie - forgiveness), there is no hope.
     
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