Should Religious leaders be involved in any form of public school employment

[Marathon runner]

Well, I think it's pretty evident from Marathon runner's inane tirades that it is useless to even try having any sort of debate with him. He's not really debating, and he can't debate. He's obviously far too biased from some strange personal experiences to think rationally on this subject.

I simply don't see the need to even attempt to converse with you anymore Marathon runner. I do hope you get help with your issues and your anger.

you know Drake some people can be swayed and convinced that maybe its themselves that they need to take a look at and professionals know best , but when you've done wrong you've done wrong its really that simple .What I"ve learned from all of this , is that every teacher I've spoken too has insulted ,belittled , and humiliated a great number of their students , they all admittedly have used name calling .When I was in school all my teachers were good but not today they are all brats and pompous little mouthy jack***es ...teaching is not about dignified lessons with children who bring their bad behaviours from home its about discipline and hopefully the ability to teach and make some headway with a huge number of personalities and moods . As a former sales manager I have dealt with more characters and personalities than a teacher or religious leader could possibly hope to imagine, thats just staff alone and including about 3/4s of a millon people over several decades . How you teach and what you teach is a reflection of you and frankly I don't see how it is possible to do the public school thing and teach religion at the same time yet appropriately segregate your influences and beleif.

As a teacher you owe it to parents to teach , your day is only 6 hours maximum with alot of breaks and only about half of the year is work days with alot of fillers to accomodate you , along with everything from substitutes to helpers and speech pathologists . DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF AFTER ABUSING A PERSONS CHILD .BEST YOU LEARN TO SAY SORRY AND REACH SOME SORT OF FORGIVENESS WITH THAT PARENT OTHERWISE THERE IS NO MOVING FORWARD OR COMMON UNDERSTANDING AND TRUST ME BEING AN AFFILIATED RELIGIOUS LEADER OR INFACT A RELIGIOUS LEADER IS GOING TO HELP YOU MUCH LESS EVEN AFTER THE FACT AND LASTLY...

YOU WILL OFFEND A PARENT

THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT SO BEST AS A RELIGIOUS LEADER YOU DO NOT PAINT THAT TARGET ON YOUR FOREHEAD NOR SHOULD THE PEOPLE OF YOUR CONGREGATION ALLOW IT .

GOOD DAY DRAKE ...

 

[Draka]

What I heard..."blah blah blah everybody is mean blah blah blah...I have issues....blah blah blah...I don't know how to use punctuation or sentence structure....blah blah blah...you're a big meanie...blah blah blah blah blah."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, Marathon runner: what I've gotten from you so far is that you think that all teachers are awful, all pastors are awful... have you ever met anyone who you did like?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

How annoyingly typical for you to say such horn blowing thing ...teaching is not worthy of respect . Teachers follow standards all set out for them (public grade schools)they are lazy incompetent and incredibly irresponsible ...

It's always good to see a well thought out, reasoned response.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

all teachers are the equivalent of their worst student to both children and their parents should we get onto the topic of staff room jokes and conversations ??? you people and your ignorant and naive smokescreens is amazing .

Just throwing this out there for consideration ...

... is it possible that Marathon Runner is our friendly neighborhood troll?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

you know Drake some people can be swayed and convinced that maybe its themselves that they need to take a look at and professionals know best , but when you've done wrong you've done wrong its really that simple .What I"ve learned from all of this , is that every teacher I've spoken too has insulted ,belittled , and humiliated a great number of their students , they all admittedly have used name calling .When I was in school all my teachers were good but not today they are all brats and pompous little mouthy jack***es ...teaching is not about dignified lessons with children who bring their bad behaviours from home its about discipline and hopefully the ability to teach and make some headway with a huge number of personalities and moods . As a former sales manager I have dealt with more characters and personalities than a teacher or religious leader could possibly hope to imagine, thats just staff alone and including about 3/4s of a millon people over several decades . How you teach and what you teach is a reflection of you and frankly I don't see how it is possible to do the public school thing and teach religion at the same time yet appropriately segregate your influences and beleif.

As a teacher you owe it to parents to teach , your day is only 6 hours maximum with alot of breaks and only about half of the year is work days with alot of fillers to accomodate you , along with everything from substitutes to helpers and speech pathologists . DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF AFTER ABUSING A PERSONS CHILD .BEST YOU LEARN TO SAY SORRY AND REACH SOME SORT OF FORGIVENESS WITH THAT PARENT OTHERWISE THERE IS NO MOVING FORWARD OR COMMON UNDERSTANDING AND TRUST ME BEING AN AFFILIATED RELIGIOUS LEADER OR INFACT A RELIGIOUS LEADER IS GOING TO HELP YOU MUCH LESS EVEN AFTER THE FACT AND LASTLY...

YOU WILL OFFEND A PARENT

THERE IS NO QUESTION ABOUT THAT SO BEST AS A RELIGIOUS LEADER YOU DO NOT PAINT THAT TARGET ON YOUR FOREHEAD NOR SHOULD THE PEOPLE OF YOUR CONGREGATION ALLOW IT .

GOOD DAY DRAKE ...

Just above the "Shift" key, on the left side of the keyboard, is a key marked "CAPS LOCK". If you press it once, it will allow you to type normally (as others do), so that we can enjoy the warmth and caring nature of your posts.

Go on - give it a try.

 

[Apollonius]

Considering that early Catholic scholasticism inevitably led to secular schooling why should religious leaders now be excluded from any form of involvement in public education?

 

[AxisMundi]

Having a degree in another profession doesn't preclude you from becoming a teacher. The important thing is that you hold normal teaching qualifications.

For instance, one of my teachers was a professional engineer. He decided that his heart was more in teaching than engineering and switched careers... and despite being an engineer, he was a really good teacher.

I've also had teachers who were also professional actors and musicians. None of this got in the way of their ability to teach.

Holding qualifications in some other area doesn't stop someone from being a qualified teacher.

Again, I have never attempted to state that someone could not hold multuple degrees.

Enough with the strawmen please, this is the second time (at least) you've attempted to argue something that just isn't there.

My argument stems purely from a conflict of interest when professional CLERGY teach in PUBLIC schools.

 

[AxisMundi]

Considering that early Catholic scholasticism inevitably led to secular schooling why should religious leaders now be excluded from any form of involvement in public education?

Wow, haven't seen a non sequitur that wide in a long while.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, I have never attempted to state that someone could not hold multuple degrees.

No, you attempted to argue that your opposition to clergy in public schools is based on some sort of general principle:

Ordained clergy are professionals, sorry if you cannot understand that.

It is no different than having a degree in any other profession.

Enough with the strawmen please, this is the second time (at least) you've attempted to argue something that just isn't there.

Okay; you didn't mean what you said. What DID you mean, then?

My argument stems purely from a conflict of interest when professional CLERGY teach in PUBLIC schools.

That a conflict of interest necessarily exists at all is a claim that you haven't given any valid support to so far.

 

[Draka]

Again, I have never attempted to state that someone could not hold multuple degrees.

Yet you seem to think it impossible for someone to be clergy and hold a degree in education. At least, that's how you present it.

Enough with the strawmen please, this is the second time (at least) you've attempted to argue something that just isn't there.

Not a strawman at all. YOU are the one stating things like "However, a licened plumber doesn't teach elementary school." As if being licensed or certified in one profession precludes you from teaching.

My argument stems purely from a conflict of interest when professional CLERGY teach in PUBLIC schools.

You have yet to provide what "conflict of interest" you are referring to and prove that it exists throughout all clergy members. You have been called on this before and you keep ignoring it.

 

[AxisMundi]

No, you attempted to argue that your opposition to clergy in public schools is based on some sort of general principle:

Okay; you didn't mean what you said. What DID you mean, then?

That a conflict of interest necessarily exists at all is a claim that you haven't given any valid support to so far.

1. I meant what I said, and I have been quite clear. What motivates you to introduce strawmen?

2. I explained the basis for my opinion. If you don't agree, well, that's your opinion.

 

[AxisMundi]

Yet you seem to think it impossible for someone to be clergy and hold a degree in education. At least, that's how you present it.

Not a strawman at all. YOU are the one stating things like "However, a licened plumber doesn't teach elementary school." As if being licensed or certified in one profession precludes you from teaching.

You have yet to provide what "conflict of interest" you are referring to and prove that it exists throughout all clergy members. You have been called on this before and you keep ignoring it.

Clergy can indeed hold a degree in education, and teach in a parochial school.

 

[Draka]

Clergy can indeed hold a degree in education, and teach in a parochial school.

Please do tell us of all the Wiccan, Druidism, Animism, Hinduism, Buddhist, Shamanistic, Luciferian, Mysticism, Hellenic, Norse, and Setian Parochial schools there are available to teach at?



AND again...WHAT conflict of interest???

 

[AxisMundi]

Please do tell us of all the Wiccan, Druidism, Animism, Hinduism, Buddhist, Shamanistic, Luciferian, Mysticism, Hellenic, Norse, and Setian Parochial schools there are available to teach at?

AND again...WHAT conflict of interest???

1. So this excuses a double standard?

2. Religious professionals teaching in a governemnt institution is the conflict of itnerest, as ntoed ad nauseum.

 

[Draka]

1. So this excuses a double standard?

2. Religious professionals teaching in a governemnt institution is the conflict of itnerest, as ntoed ad nauseum.

1. NO. The point is, unless you can provide a means for all religions to have "parochial schools" for people of all religions to teach in then you can't just spout off "they can teach in parochial schools". You can't provide parochial schools for every single religion, so then those of all religions should be free to teach in public schools regardless of whether they are clergy or not.

2. You still have not brought up a conflict of interest. Just saying that certain people are "religious professionals" does NOT display a conflict of interest. What part of "people can separate their beliefs from their jobs" do you not understand? You expect clergy to not be able to keep themselves from proselytizing, well, guess what. There are clergy members already teaching in public schools AND the incidents you read about where people are proselytizing in public schools are vastly NOT these people. They are the non-ordained religious people. They are the non-ordained atheist. They are the "regular" people you seem to think have no "conflict of interest".

You have absolutely no basis or validation for your comments you keep spewing over and over. You have yet to provide anything with any substantial proof to validate your position. Yes, yes, ...people are allowed their opinions and you are allowed yours. But do not come here under the impression that your opinion is somehow right and is validated. Because it isn't. You can have the opinion that the sky is a blue silk blanket with puffy white polka dots too...doesn't mean your opinion holds any truth whatsoever.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

... early Catholic scholasticism inevitably led to secular schooling ...

Maybe you could explain this statement. I'm not following it.

 

[AxisMundi]

1. NO. The point is, unless you can provide a means for all religions to have "parochial schools" for people of all religions to teach in then you can't just spout off "they can teach in parochial schools". You can't provide parochial schools for every single religion, so then those of all religions should be free to teach in public schools regardless of whether they are clergy or not.

2. You still have not brought up a conflict of interest. Just saying that certain people are "religious professionals" does NOT display a conflict of interest. What part of "people can separate their beliefs from their jobs" do you not understand? You expect clergy to not be able to keep themselves from proselytizing, well, guess what. There are clergy members already teaching in public schools AND the incidents you read about where people are proselytizing in public schools are vastly NOT these people. They are the non-ordained religious people. They are the non-ordained atheist. They are the "regular" people you seem to think have no "conflict of interest".

You have absolutely no basis or validation for your comments you keep spewing over and over. You have yet to provide anything with any substantial proof to validate your position. Yes, yes, ...people are allowed their opinions and you are allowed yours. But do not come here under the impression that your opinion is somehow right and is validated. Because it isn't. You can have the opinion that the sky is a blue silk blanket with puffy white polka dots too...doesn't mean your opinion holds any truth whatsoever.

Firstly, I think it is a conflict of interest for religious professionals to be paid instructors in a secular government operated institution.

You can whine and cry about bigotry all you wish, doesn't change my opinion.

Secondly, disallowing Abrahamic clergy from teaching in public institutions, while allowing non-Abrahamic clergy to do so merely because there are no, or little, non-Abrahamic parochials is STILL a double standard.

If you are so concerned about not being able to teach in a public school, start a Wiccan parochial.

 

[Draka]

Wow, I think continuing on this thread is pretty useless. It's like beating a dead horse while talking to a wall here. You just don't get and and it appears you refuse to try. You want to sit in your prejudice, I guess there's nothing I can do about that. At least we don't have to worry about your opinions meaning anything in reality.

 

[Apollonius]

Maybe you could explain this statement. I'm not following it.

It's quite simple really .. that religious studies and the resultant academia arising from such scholarly investigation predates and thus contributed to the emergence of secular scholarship.