1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Should Religious leaders be involved in any form of public school employment

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Marathon runner, Mar 7, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Marathon runner

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    Ratings:
    +1
    I see some very serious problems with our Pastor being an employee in the local school and to make matters worse one of the elders or for better and more precise words , a person with alot of clout both in our church and the school , decided to favor the school over whats right and honest (teacher bullying) well since then I see them both as bigots hiding behind a very powerful union and the all mighty dollar , and more or less cowards with no cooth morals or principals other than what benefits them (understandable , afterall we all have to eat ) . Obviously as a parent neither no longer have much respect from me , infact they are at least as pathetic as I may be to some people , and to think I actually looked at them a bit like heros because of how considerate they were . Should any religious leaders be involved in public schools because obviously there seems to be a conflict of interest here and bullying is only one senario of what potential problems can occur with superiors both in our religious congregations and schools or Perhaps I don't see the beneficial side to this and my situation is just an uncommon occurance and circumstancial . Please share .
     
  2. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    44,609
    Ratings:
    +2,360
    Religion:
    UU/ panentheist/ neopagan/ process theology
    I don't think a blanket prohibition would be wise, but they should definitely be scrutinized.
     
  3. footprints

    footprints Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2009
    Messages:
    2,589
    Ratings:
    +57
    Simply put, if a person has the qualifications or similar experience acceptable to gain entry as a teacher, meets the criteria for child protection, then there is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't teach if time avails them or they need to earn a living.

    Pertaining to your issue with some teachers, if the problem is real and genuine and as bad as you make it appear, many other parents will be complaining. No union that I know of, will protect a person who is abusing children. If not, then I would look elsewhere for the source of your problem.
     
  4. Mike182

    Mike182 Flaming Queer

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2005
    Messages:
    13,383
    Ratings:
    +1,389
    agreed, but not beyond the scrutiny of any other teacher.
     
  5. ChrisP

    ChrisP Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2005
    Messages:
    10,956
    Ratings:
    +871
    :yes: Democracy is representative, it would depend on 1. the school 2. the subject matter and 3. how it was being taught for me.
     
  6. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    103
    Ratings:
    +14
    My gut tells me no, they shouldn't, but admittedly my gut is biased. Given the climate of evangelical Christianity in the U.S. I simply don't trust that such a strong believer could keep their beliefs out of the classroom. I've read too many news articles of teachers who have abused that privilege. For instance, a few months ago there was a coach who took his football team on a school bus to all get baptized. Granted, it was after school hours and he paid for the gas himself, but it's a flagrant abuse of authority. Things like this happen constantly.

    However, prohibiting religious people from holding those jobs is no different then denying it to blacks or some other group. Federal law prohibits discrimination on the grounds of religion. Even giving them extra scrutiny would be tantamount to profiling. But since we can't punish people for what they haven't yet done, the only thing one can do is make sure that rules are adhered to by all educators and that if any are found to have violated said rules or abused their position, that they are dealt with swiftly.

    -S-
     
  7. Man of Faith

    Man of Faith Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    3,423
    Ratings:
    +89
    People have a right to their personal beliefs, freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion.
     
  8. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    44,609
    Ratings:
    +2,360
    Religion:
    UU/ panentheist/ neopagan/ process theology
    No, but our schools are supposed to be neutral.
     
  9. ShakeZula

    ShakeZula The Master Shake

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    103
    Ratings:
    +14
    I wonder if you'd be so kind as to explain to me how one can have a freedom of religion if they aren't free to not have it imposed upon them by the state? Does the Hindu child have freedom of religion when the school attempts to indoctrinate and forcibly convert him or her to Christianity? Smacks of what we did to the Native Americans, don't it.

    -S-
     
  10. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    26,933
    Ratings:
    +6,255
    Correct. People should be free to practice and believe what they want in regards to religion.

    Government institutions should be secular, and in so doing allows each and every person to implement the First Amendment.

    To answer the OP, I don't see a problem with involving religious leaders into being employed in public schools, so long as they check their religion-based decision-making for the students at the door.
     
  11. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2006
    Messages:
    25,055
    Ratings:
    +3,199
    Religion:
    Disciple of Yeshua.
    I don't think being a pastor should have any effect on any other job the person may have. It would be discrimination if they fired him/her or wouldn't hire him/her just because of that. But I agree that the pastor should pastor the church but not the school. (I know a pastor who fixes and builds roofs and I doubt he preaches while putting on the shingles, :D )
     
  12. MysticSang'ha

    MysticSang'ha Big Squishy Hugger
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    26,933
    Ratings:
    +6,255
    I think you put it better than I did. Too bad I'm out of frubals. :(
     
  13. justbehappy

    justbehappy Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    430
    Ratings:
    +13
    I can see the point here. Schools are not supposed to have religious influence, and having a pastor as a teacher would obviously bring some. Teachers can be extremely bias, and they bring their opinion to the table quite often, even if they're not supposed to. I don't see how it be illegal to prohibit them from being teachers, though.
     
  14. TheKnight

    TheKnight Guardian of Life

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,100
    Ratings:
    +195
    If a religious leader is well-versed and trained in a subject other than their religion, then what would be so problematic about them teaching that subject?

    So what if there is a possibility that they will attempt to share their religious faith? Everyone has their flaws, and in all honesty I'd prefer that it was a guy trying to convert my kid then some person who wanted to rape my kid (if I had kids that is).

    According to whom?

    According to whom?
     
  15. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    44,609
    Ratings:
    +2,360
    Religion:
    UU/ panentheist/ neopagan/ process theology
    The Constitution.
     
  16. TheKnight

    TheKnight Guardian of Life

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,100
    Ratings:
    +195
    :eek: It says in the Constitution that schools are supposed to be neutral! Wow, I've never read that before, where exactly does it say that?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,768
    Ratings:
    +13,365
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    How did his being a pastor factor into this specific issue?

    No, I don't think there should be a blanket ban on pastors. All else being equal, I've got no more problem with the "president" of one of the local "god clubs" being a teacher than the president of the local Rotary Club being one. However, he does have a job to do with the school and a duty to make sure his extracurricular activities don't negatively effect his ability to do that job.

    Also, there are a number of religions and denominations where many or all of the adult members are considered priests, so if you had a blanket ban on all clergy, this would have the same effect as decreeing that members of these religions can't work for schools at all.

    Nothing, as long as they stick to teaching and not proselytizing.

    I would hope that in most school boards, those aren't the only options. :areyoucra

    Actually, I would hope that in most school boards, neither of those teachers are options.

    If a school only gave me the options of the rapist or the proselytizer as my child's teacher, I'd transfer my child to another school, figure out some way to pay for a private school, or move to another school district.

    IMO, a good teacher is one who's primarily concerned with educating children. Someone who's more concerned with converting his students than educating them in is a bad teacher. I think that reason alone is enough to conclude that a proselytizing teacher is a situation that needs to be dealt with.

    Edit: do you apply this principle in other areas? For instance, say you found out your child's teacher was a neo-nazi who taught the class that Jews were evil; would your reaction be "oh, well... as long as he's not getting raped"?
     
    #17 9-10ths_Penguin, Mar 9, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2010
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Storm

    Storm ThrUU the Looking Glass

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    44,609
    Ratings:
    +2,360
    Religion:
    UU/ panentheist/ neopagan/ process theology
    Wiki: Establishment Clause of the First Amendment:
    The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

    The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference of one religion over another or the support of a religious idea with no identifiable secular purpose.
    Public schools are government agencies, and bound by the First Amendment. You also might want to take a look at the section State-sanctioned prayer in public schools.
     
  19. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Riboflavin
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2007
    Messages:
    54,768
    Ratings:
    +13,365
    Religion:
    None (atheist)
    I find it hard to believe that you've never heard of Lemon v. Kurtzman. The Supreme Court's decision in that case spells out how religious neutrality of public institutions is derived from the Establishment clause of the Constitution.
     
  20. Marathon runner

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    Ratings:
    +1
    my issue is more related to my son being physically harmed he did not fight back he never does nor does he swear and is known for his extreme good sportsmanship and pleasant attitude infact he simply said he pushed me down again (another student knocked him down hard three times during a shinny soccer game ) well he was reprimanded for saying that whore knocked me down again by a teacher who was clear across the school grounds and told this by two unsportsman like girls who just wanted to make trouble . Evidently the teacher claimed he admitted to saying those words when he really didn't ,and even went as far as telling the girls to tell my son to come to her , which he did , then she continued to talk and yell so fast that he didn't know what he was nodding to when she went as far as performing a spelling quiz about how to spell the word whore . ALL THIS AFTER PHYSICAL VIOLENCE WHICH WAS COMPLETELY LEFT UNCHECKED OR DEALT WITH . I told her I would have much worse words than whore if someone pushed me down 3 TIMES (he never used the word according to many witnesses and infact has never said the word around us or any of its metaphors or infact any swear word NOONE HAS EVER HEARD HIM SWEAR EVEN AT SCHOOL )..well to make a long story short I went to my church members who happen to work for the school in significant positions . Both replied to me that the teacher in question they know to be a responsible member of the school who they have known for numerous decades and pointed out that I should be the one to accept her lack of ability to deal with physical violence from two children... who come from parents who are important business people in the community . In my opinion it shows these girls are able to control teachers and due to personal need to save their own behinds they took whats right and became pathetic little cowards right before my very eyes just as the freinds of Jesus did (known as apostles) . So my question is based on pure integrity or should I say the lack of it It's all related to how they positioned themselves by being important members of both the school and church . i BELIEVE IF YOU ARE LEADERS IN RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES AND ALSO WORK FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS YOU ARE GOING TO DIG AN AWFUL HOLE FOR YOURSELF WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO OR NOT AND THIS IS ALSO A VERY GOOD EXAMPLE AND REASON WHY RELIGION AND CHURCH SHOULD BE SEGREGATED EVEN AS FAR AS PHYSICALLY .

    Will you turn your back on your congregations members ? Of course you will God did many times over . Its Jesus who did not . Beware every congregation has its apostles .
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...