Should God have created a world without suffering?

[CG Didymus]

No, God designed a world in which it is possible to have natural disasters, but God does not cause those natural disasters, they simply happen. in a physical world.

If there is a God like the one you believe in... then He created a world where there is natural disasters, and he knows when they will happen and which people are going to be killed. Or, there is positive and negative forces at work and people get in the way sometimes.

We're typically not getting that far because you keep dropping back to faith based statements rather than logical ones. There were aspects of the discussion like; "God created everything but didn't create suffering"

1) God created everything.
2) Suffering is part of everything.
3) Therefore; God created suffering.

Sounds logical to me.

Let me correct that so it reflects my actual position.
1) God created everything.
2) In the creation are things that can cause suffering.
3) Therefore, God created the potential for suffering.

There is logically flawed about that. It is perfectly logical.

Floods, fires, hurricanes etc. that is how he created the world and he knew people would be killed by these things.

That is not logical. Just because God created things knowing that they would cause suffering that does not mean that God created suffering. Suffering exists because it is not preventable in a physical world

Suffering is not preventable, because God created the world to be like that.

But God created the physical world and the human relationships. You can't say God created everything and then list some things God didn't create.

If God created everything that leads to those actions with full knowledge of exactly how they would play out, and would be entirely capable of changing things so they play out differently, how could you say he isn't responsible for all of those consequences (good, bad and indifferent)? Whether it involves a volcanic eruption, a meteor strike, a tree falling in the forest or human behaviour, God would be in complete and utter control at every single step.

Maybe not the Baha'i version of God, but the Christian God, supposedly, is going to end all suffering. And we hear Christians tell us all the time that God created the world perfect but that doggone devil got Adam and Eve to sin, which forced God to curse them along with the whole world. Without Satan, what can Baha'is do but put the blame on people. But why do they "sin"? Hmmm? Because God made them that way? Or, all those concepts of God are man's attempt to answer the question of why things are the way they are.

But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them.

Please explain this. Who is forcing and compelling? Who created death, sickness and injuries?

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is a God like the one you believe in... then He created a world where there is natural disasters, and he knows when they will happen and which people are going to be killed. Or, there is positive and negative forces at work and people get in the way sometimes.

Floods, fires, hurricanes etc. that is how he created the world and he knew people would be killed by these things.

Suffering is not preventable, because God created the world to be like that.

That's right but so what? Why should this material world be free of suffering? Paradise comes later, in heaven, because that's how God set it up.

Maybe not the Baha'i version of God, but the Christian God, supposedly, is going to end all suffering. And we hear Christians tell us all the time that God created the world perfect but that doggone devil got Adam and Eve to sin, which forced God to curse them along with the whole world. Without Satan, what can Baha'is do but put the blame on people. But why do they "sin"? Hmmm? Because God made them that way? Or, all those concepts of God are man's attempt to answer the question of why things are the way they are.

No, this world will never be free of suffering because the material world is the cause of all the suffering. The suffering that is the result of economic and social injustice and wars and evil people will end eventually, but there will still be suffering from accidents, injuries, diseases, natural disasters, loss of income, etc.

Please explain this. Who is forcing and compelling? Who created death, sickness and injuries?

God is. We are forced and compelled to endure this suffering because God set it up that way....
I finally gave up fighting it. I am so beaten down. God got His way.

 

[samtonga43]

That's right but so what? We are forced and compelled to endure this suffering because God set it up that way....
I finally gave up fighting it. I am so beaten down. God got His way

I'm sorry, Tb, that your faith makes you so unhappy. You said somewhere else that the only place you see God is in the pages of a book and that you would rather be an atheist.
Why are you doing this to yourself, Tb?
You also say that you neither pray not meditate, the two practices which would be of more help to you than spending hours on an internet forum.
You present God as a tyrant whom you have to obey. Why anyone would want to become a Bahai is a mystery to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry, Tb, that your faith makes you so unhappy. You said somewhere else that the only place you see God is in the pages of a book and that you would rather be an atheist.
Why are you doing this to yourself, Tb?
You also say that you neither pray not meditate, the two practices which would be of more help to you than spending hours on an internet forum.
You present God as a tyrant whom you have to obey. Why anyone would want to become a Bahai is a mystery to me.

Don't try to make this about the Baha'i Faith because that plane won't fly. Just read posts or post to any other Baha'i on this forum and you will find out that they all love God and do not have the issues with God that I have. These are my personal issues, they are totally unrelated to the Baha'i Faith.

I am not doing anything to myself. I am a Baha'i because I know Baha'u'llah is who He claimed to be, so I would be a fool to reject Him and the Baha'i Faith. I also have a healthy fear of God.

I really do not see God as a tyrant, I just realize that God is responsible for certain things, including much of the suffering in this world. If the other Baha'is choose to wear blinders and ignore the Baha'i Writings just so they can love God, that is not my problem.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

I love how he starts out “Some things are subject to the free will of man." Why not just call an ace an ace and a spade a spade? WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way. All this suffering is God's Will for humans.

Praying and meditating are not going to help me. Do you really believe that God answers prayers? No, it all falls on deaf ears. Pray for what? Pray to survive one more day of God's setup in this material world where humans suffer and die through no fault of their own? No thanks. If you can love a God who is the cause of so much of the suffering in the world that is your prerogative, just count me out. Nonetheless, I will continue to try to work on my attitude towards God, but there is a long history behind why I feel this way.

Last night I got an e-mail from a Baha'i sent out to all Baha'is in the community about a woman who has been very ill and is in the hospital and won't be going back home again. She asked the Baha'is for prayers. Prayers for what? She is going to die and God is not going to prevent that. Why not just pray to the Taliban?

 

[CG Didymus]

God is. We are forced and compelled to endure this suffering because God set it up that way....
I finally gave up fighting it. I am so beaten down. God got His way.

Free will? If a person doesn't do what this God wants they are beaten down until the submit?

I'm sorry, Tb, that your faith makes you so unhappy. You said somewhere else that the only place you see God is in the pages of a book and that you would rather be an atheist.
Why are you doing this to yourself, Tb?
You also say that you neither pray not meditate, the two practices which would be of more help to you than spending hours on an internet forum.
You present God as a tyrant whom you have to obey.

But she believes this to be the same God that Christians believe in. Is the Christian God a tyrant?

I really do not see God as a tyrant, I just realize that God is responsible for certain things, including much of the suffering in this world. If the other Baha'is choose to wear blinders and ignore the Baha'i Writings just so they can love God, that is not my problem.

So God is not a tyrant? But is God all-loving, kind and just?

Praying and meditating are not going to help me. Do you really believe that God answers prayers? No, it all falls on deaf ears. Pray for what? Pray to survive one more day of God's setup in this material world where humans suffer and die through no fault of their own? No thanks. If you can love a God who is the cause of so much of the suffering in the world that is your prerogative, just count me out. Nonetheless, I will continue to try to work on my attitude towards God, but there is a long history behind why I feel this way.

Last night I got an e-mail from a Baha'i sent out to all Baha'is in the community about a woman who has been very ill and is in the hospital and won't be going back home again. She asked the Baha'is for prayers. Prayers for what? She is going to die and God is not going to prevent that.

If God doesn't answer prayers, what good is this God? In the Bible, he supposedly helps those that love him and sometimes destroys evil people. Do Baha'is believe that God does either one?

I love how he starts out “Some things are subject to the free will of man." Why not just call an ace an ace and a spade a spade? WHY is man forced to endure them? Because God set it up that way. All this suffering is God's Will for humans.

It's God's will? And yet you keep telling us it is not God's fault? He is not to blame?

There's been lots of concepts of God and Gods. Of course you believe the Baha'i definition of who God is, but what about all those others? If they aren't true, then where did they come from? People. People trying to make sense of a world filled with pain and suffering. They have made up Gods that need to be appeased through sacrifices. Some people have a good God fighting against an evil God or an evil spirit being. There are Gods that need to be loved and prayed to. But some of those concepts of God aren't real. So what have the prayers and sacrifices really done? Nothing. But for those praying and fasting, lighting candles, giving money or sacrificing an animal, they have a hope that the "Gods" will help them and answer their prayers. If things work out well, they praise God and thank him. If things turn out bad, they figure that it must be "God's will." But it wasn't real.

How about praying to the Christian Trinitarian God? Prayers are answered. People do get healed. Coincidence or did this God, that Baha'is say is not real, have something to do with it? Not if he's not real. But to those Christians he sure seems real. They "know" him. They can feel his spirit in their hearts guiding them. But to non-Christians, it's all make believe. Anyway, some concepts of God do make him a tyrant. A jealous God just waiting to destroy all the "evil" people that don't love him and obey him.

 

[Martin]

I have several questions:

1. Should God have created a world without suffering? If so, why? If not, why not?

2. How could God have created humans with physical bodies without engendering suffering?

3. How could God have created a material world without engendering suffering?

4. If God prevented suffering should God prevent all suffering or just some suffering?

5. If God prevented some suffering should God allow some people to suffer more than other people?

Thanks, Trailblazer.

Yes, God should have created a world without suffering.
Next?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, God should have created a world without suffering.

No, that is not what I believe, but I think that we should realize that the reason we suffer is because of the material world.
God created the material world knowing that humans and animals would suffer. You can draw your own conclusions from that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Free will? If a person doesn't do what this God wants they are beaten down until the submit?

You got it. We are beaten down until we finally submit and if we don't submit we continue to be beaten down.

So God is not a tyrant? But is God all-loving, kind and just?

God is not really a tyrant but I cannot say that I believe that God is all-loving, kind and just, just becaue that is written in a book.

If God doesn't answer prayers, what good is this God? In the Bible, he supposedly helps those that love him and sometimes destroys evil people. Do Baha'is believe that God does either one?

No, Baha'is do not believe that God destroys evil people. Sometimes God answers prayers but only at His own discretion

It's God's will? And yet you keep telling us it is not God's fault? He is not to blame?

I never said God is not to blame. God is to blame for creating a material world in which humans will suffer and expecting us to live in it till we die. Some of our suffering is because of our own poor free will decisions but much of our suffering is not our fault because it was fated by God, yet Abrahamics and even Dharmics blame themselves for their suffering. With Abrahamic believers it is if only I had more trust and faith in God I would not suffer, with the Dharmic believers it is if only I was more detached from this world I would never suffer. The result is the same -- humans are responsible for their own suffering. I am not buying that bill of goods unless I know I had a part in my own suffering.

Then we are told we will be free of suffering in the next world, but only if we loved this God that created all the suffering.
Something is bad a Black Rock.

 

[CG Didymus]

You got it. We are beaten down until we finally submit and if we don't submit we continue to be beaten down.

God is not really a tyrant but I cannot say that I believe that God is all-loving, kind and just, just becaue that is written in a book.

No, Baha'is do not believe that God destroys evil people. Sometimes God answers prayers but only at His own discretion

I never said God is not to blame. God is to blame for creating a material world in which humans will suffer and expecting us to live in it till we die. Some of our suffering is because of our own poor free will decisions but much of our suffering is not our fault because it was fated by God, yet Abrahamics and even Dharmics blame themselves for their suffering. With Abrahamic believers it is if only I had more trust and faith in God I would not suffer, with the Dharmic believers it is if only I was more detached from this world I would never suffer. The result is the same -- humans are responsible for their own suffering. I am not buying that bill of goods unless I know I had a part in my own suffering.

Then we are told we will be free of suffering in the next world, but only if we loved this God that created all the suffering.
Something is bad a Black Rock.

You know for a short time in three different religious beliefs, I was happy and felt the love of God inside. But each religion was different. My conclusion was that it didn't matter what I believed as long as I believed it was true. And you know what they say... When you're believing and following your God they say, "Oh, you're being tested. That way your love will grow stronger." When you're falling away and doubting they say, "God is letting bad things happen to get you to come back to him." Either way %^#$ happens. And they explain it away whether you're doing good or doing bad.

 

[Trailblazer]

You know for a short time in three different religious beliefs, I was happy and felt the love of God inside. But each religion was different. My conclusion was that it didn't matter what I believed as long as I believed it was true. And you know what they say... When you're believing and following your God they say, "Oh, you're being tested. That way your love will grow stronger." When you're falling away and doubting they say, "God is letting bad things happen to get you to come back to him." Either way %^#$ happens. And they explain it away whether you're doing good or doing bad.

I am glad you had that experience, that sounds hopeful. I don't really know if it matters what religious belief you hold.

I never felt the love of God inside, but the other Baha'is will tell me that is my own fault because I don't love God. I am so sick of religion including Baha'i. I am only here anymore because I have no place else to go. Do I help anyone? I doubt it, and I am not helping myself. But if I knew I was helping anyone I would stay because helping others is more important to me than helping myself.

Christians and Bahais explain everything away and as you know they always have an explanation, as if they know what God is doing.

 

[Trailblazer]

I question whether omnipotence and true free will can exist in the same universe. How can we be truly free to do anything if what we're going to do is already know and thus predetermined? That is a whole separate philosophical problem.

What we are going to do is known by God because God has foreknowledge, but what will do has not been predetermined by God. In other words, God does not cause us to do what we do, we cause it by choosing it and acting upon our choice.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

“the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

In this context, introducing the concept of "free will" doesn't change anything. God made everything and knows what the consequences of how he made it will be. He remains in complete and unconditional control regardless (otherwise, he wouldn't be omnipotent). Even if he gave us free will somehow, he could take it away again at any point. Nothing can happen if God didn't want it to.

As I said above, God knows what will happen but God does not cause anything to happen.
You are right that God is in complete control, so God could override our free will if He wanted to, but God did not give us free will just to take it away.

That second sentence is a statement of logic though. You are grossly underestimating the significance and scope of declaring that logic can't be applied to God. Pretty much everything we're both saying here is based on logic.

Humans can say what we believe is logical but God is not subject to what we might 'believe' is logical because God transcends all human limitations and conceptions.

Again, the fundamental contradiction you present. You declare that we can't know anything about God but then present scripture as being a way in which we can know something about God.

That is not a contradiction because the scriptures say that we can know some of God's attributes and God's will for humans, as those are revealed through the Messenger, although the Essence of God is beyond human comprehension.

This is the core issue of many statements of faith and religion. Challenges from outside are dismissed with generic concepts - God is beyond our understanding, God is beyond logic, God is all powerful and all knowing etc. but believers go on to make all sorts of definitive statements about God (because what would be the point of theistic religion if you didn't). My point remains the same - you can't have it both ways.

I can have it both ways, as I just explained above. We can know 'something' about God but certainly not very much, since God is for the most part a complete mystery. What the Messengers reveal about God is what we need to know and can comprehend such that we can believe in God and trust God.

If God is beyond out logic, knowledge and understanding, nobody can say anything definitively about God (ironically, including that statement ).

If it is possible to make any valid statements about the nature, actions and motives of God (which you do), you can't dismiss those made by anyone else out of hand. You have to address them on the basis of simple logic, theological interpretation and observable reality.

But then that isn't how faith works is it?

We cannot say anything about the Essence of God (God's intrinsic nature) because we can never know it. For example we cannot say how God thinks or operates. All we can say about God is what God revealed to the Messenger for the age we live in, some of God's attributes and God's will for humans collectively in this age...

The Messengers do not reveal everything they know about God, only what humans need to know and are capable of understanding at the time of revelation. More will be revealed to mankind in the future when another Messenger of God appears. Mankind's capacity to understand God increases as man evolves over time, and more is revealed. Baha'u'llah revealed more about God than was revealed in the Bible because in this new age mankind is now capable of understanding what we could not understand 2000 years ago.

 

[night912]

What we are going to do is known by God because God has foreknowledge, but what will do has not been predetermined by God. In other words, God does not cause us to do what we do, we cause it by choosing it and acting upon our choice.

Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.

Source

That is not a contradiction because the scriptures say that we can know some of God's attributes and God's will for humans, as those are revealed through the Messenger, although the Essence of God is beyond human comprehension.

What's the difference between "Nature" and "Essence?"

 

[Trailblazer]

Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.

Source

Already known by God is not the same as already decided by God. Some of our fate might have been decided, our irrevocable fate, but not everything has been decided, as we have free will to choose some of what will become our fate.

God is all-knowing so God knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will ever happen in this contingent world, but God's knowing is not the cause of things. The only reason we will do what God knows we will do is because God knows everything we will ever do.

What's the difference between "Nature" and "Essence?"

In reference to God I would say that the Essence of God is God's intrinsic nature.

essence
the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=essence+means

 

[night912]

Already known by God is not the same as already decided by God.

Predetermined, is not contingent on those being the same.
I'll repost what "Predeterminism" is:

Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.

But here's your problem, if an event is already decided to happen(will happen) by God, does he have foreknowledge of that event? So before God created the universe, he already decided as part of his creation is the existence of humans. Correct? Then right after the universe is created, no humans exist yet. Correct? At that moment, God has foreknowledge that humans will exist billions of years in the future. After billions of years, through evolution, humans exist on earth. So the existence of humans have been predetermined by God.

Some of our fate might have been decided, our irrevocable fate, but not everything has been decided, as we have free will to choose some of what will become our fate.

All you did was insert the words "free will" into the mix and declared that our fate was not decided, but you never gave an explanation as to why it is. Please tell me how you determined that your life wasn't predetermined by God to be how it is today.

God is all-knowing so God knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will ever happen in this contingent world, but God's knowing is not the cause of things. The only reason we will do what God knows we will do is because God knows everything we will ever do.

Exactly. God already determined and knows what you are going to do billions of years ago when the universe was first created. So like you said, there's only one reason for you to do the things that you did and will do, and it's not free will.

 

[night912]

In reference to God I would say that the Essence of God is God's intrinsic nature.

essence
the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

So there's no difference? So that means that essence is just a synonym for nature. If that's the case, then it's only logical to conclude that since we know God's nature, we also know God's essence. (a==b)

 

[Trailblazer]

Predetermined, is not contingent on those being the same.
I'll repost what "Predeterminism" is:

Predeterminism is the philosophy that all events of history, past, present and future, have been already decided or are already known (by God, fate, or some other force), including human actions.

But here's your problem, if an event is already decided to happen(will happen) by God, does he have foreknowledge of that event? So before God created the universe, he already decided as part of his creation is the existence of humans. Correct? Then right after the universe is created, no humans exist yet. Correct? At that moment, God has foreknowledge that humans will exist billions of years in the future. After billions of years, through evolution, humans exist on earth. So the existence of humans have been predetermined by God.

Yes, the existence of humans was predetermined by God, but it does not logically follow that everything that happened to humans after they came into existence was predetermined by God.

All you did was insert the words "free will" into the mix and declared that our fate was not decided, but you never gave an explanation as to why it is. Please tell me how you determined that your life wasn't predetermined by God to be how it is today.

I have no reason to believe that my life has been predetermined by God. That would mean I never made any of my own choices but rather God has been controlling all my behavior. Moreover, if free will did not exist that would mean that nobody is responsible for their moral choices, which is an untenable belief, since the entire justice system is predicted upon the existence of free will to make moral choices:

Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System
.
I also believe humans have free will based upon the Baha'i Writings. 70: FREE WILL

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

As that chapter states, not everything is subject to the free will of man, so some of these things that happen to us such as sickness, injuries and misfortunes are not a choice and might be our predetermined fate.

Regarding free will, I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to, but I believe that we can make certain choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the capacity.

Exactly. God already determined and knows what you are going to do billions of years ago when the universe was first created. So like you said, there's only one reason for you to do the things that you did and will do, and it's not free will.

God did not determine the individual choices people would make when the universe was first created. If that was true humans would be nothing more than preprogrammed robots. That is an untenable belief. There is no reason to believe this and if it were true there would be no purpose for human existence in this world, since the reason for our existence is to make choices whereby we grow spiritually and prepare ourselves for continuation of life in the spiritual world..

Humans have a capacity and a will of their own, and nothing can ever happen except as a result of our volition. How "free" we are to exercise our volition I explained above.

“And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God is:Unchanging, Eternal, Holy, Impassable, Infinite, Omnipresent, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, All-Wise, Infallible, Self-Existent, Self-Sufficient, Sovereign, and Immaterial.
,
If God changed who God is then God would not be God anymore.
That is me as a human applying logic.

You think God has the power to stop being God?

That has interesting implications.

 

[Trailblazer]

So there's no difference? So that means that essence is just a synonym for nature. If that's the case, then it's only logical to conclude that since we know God's nature, we also know God's essence. (a==b)

But we do not know God's nature, so it is only logical to conclude that since we don't know God's nature, we also don't know God's essence. (a==b)

 

[Trailblazer]

You think God has the power to stop being God?

That has interesting implications.

This has nothing to do with God's power. If God stopped being God is then God would not exist anymore.
Nobody except God knows if God could do that, will Himself into nonexistence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This has nothing to do with God's power.

Seems to me that it does.

If God stopped being God is then God would not exist anymore. Nobody except God knows if God could do that, will Himself into nonexistence.

You know. You claim to know, anyhow.