Should God have created a world without suffering?

[Trailblazer]

Seems to me that it does.

How does it?

 

[night912]

Yes, the existence of humans was predetermined by God, but it does not logically follow that everything that happened to humans after they came into existence was predetermined by God.

So special pleading.

I have no reason to believe that my life has been predetermined by God.

Argument from incredulity.

That would mean I never made any of my own choices but rather God has been controlling all my behavior.

Correct.

Moreover, if free will did not exist that would mean that nobody is responsible for their moral choices, which is an untenable belief, since the entire justice system is predicted upon the existence of free will to make moral choices:

That's a problem of your belief, not mine.

I do not need to be all knowing to know what God could not have done because I have the scriptures that tell me something about God.

What arrogance, believing that you know what did outside of the universe, eventhough you admitted that you're not all knowing.

I also believe humans have free will based upon the Baha'i Writings. 70: FREE WILL

Appeal to false authority fallacy.

As that chapter states, not everything is subject to the free will of man, so some of these things that happen to us such as sickness, injuries and misfortunes are not a choice and might be our predetermined fate.

Regarding free will, I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to, but I believe that we can make certain choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the capacity.

Red herring.

God did not determine the individual choices people would make when the universe was first created. If that was true humans would be nothing more than preprogrammed robots. That is an untenable belief. There is no reason to believe this and if it were true there would be no purpose for human existence in this world, since the reason for our existence is to make choices whereby we grow spiritually and prepare ourselves for continuation of life in the spiritual world..

Argument from incredulity

Humans have a capacity and a will of their own, and nothing can ever happen except as a result of our volition. How "free" we are to exercise our volition I explained above.

It's not a my problem that you think that your beliefs are illogical, after all, I'm just going by your beliefs.

BTW,
Denying that this isn't what you believe in, doesn't change the fact that it's a logical examination of your beliefs. If you're open to knowing new information about the teachings of your religion like you said, perhaps it's time for you to reevaluate your religion.

But we do not know God's nature, so it is only logical to conclude that since we don't know God's nature, we also don't know God's essence. (a==b)

So you changed your beliefs after seeing that it was illogical, that's good.

What you once believed that you know God's nature.

I also have logical abilities that tell me that if God changed His nature he would no longer be God just like if you changed your nature you would no longer be human. It is not possible to change your nature since you were created with it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So special pleading.

Argument from incredulity.

Correct.

That's a problem of your belief, not mine.

What arrogance, believing that you know what did outside of the universe, eventhough you admitted that you're not all knowing.

Appeal to false authority fallacy.

Red herring.

Argument from incredulity

It's not a my problem that you think that your beliefs are illogical, after all, I'm just going by your beliefs.

BTW,
Denying that this isn't what you believe in, doesn't change the fact that it's a logical examination of your beliefs. If you're open to knowing new information about the teachings of your religion like you said, perhaps it's time for you to reevaluate your religion.

So you changed your beliefs after seeing that it was illogical, that's good.

What you once believed that you know God's nature.

Please let me know if you ever want to have a two-way discussion rather than telling me what I think and what I believe and why I believe it and calling out fallacies. I don't respond to those kinds of posts anymore because I have free will so I can choose not to.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Please let me know if you ever want to have a two-way discussion rather than telling me what I think and what I believe and why I believe it and calling out fallacies. I don't respond to those kinds of posts anymore because I have free will so I can choose not to.

Ummm you just replied to @night912 you said you did not reply to that kind of posts

Got ya.....

 

[Trailblazer]

Ummm you just replied to @night912 you said you did not reply to that kind of posts

Got ya.....

I did not mean I do not reply at all, I meant I don't respond to all the critiques and try to defend myself -- I am no longer the prisoner I once was... I am free.
Free will is a charm. It gives me all kinds of freedoms.

 

[night912]

Please let me know if you ever want to have a two-way discussion rather than telling me what I think and what I believe and why I believe it and calling out fallacies. I don't respond to those kinds of posts anymore because I have free will so I can choose not to.

Just because your feelings were hurt after I pointed out the numerous fallacious things you said, resulting in
you realizing that you didn't have much understanding in logic as you thought you did, there's no need to play the victim game here. That's childish, something that I wouldn't expect from 50+ year old adult. I didn't forced you. Your God didn't forced you. You chose to get into this discussion out of your own FREE WILL. So please, take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming others for your inability to defend your arguments.

Don't try to insult my intelligence by thinking that I don't know how to look back at your previous posts to see what you said. And don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth or telling you what you believe, when you're the one who is sharing all those things in a public forum.

Please don't accuse me of not having a two-way conversation when there's so much evidence proving that i was, in fact, having a two-way conversation. So if you are willing to have an honest and mature conversation, instead of dishonestly backpedaling on your words, then we can continue having this conversation. The choice is yours.

Be happy and have a wonderful day.

 

[night912]

I did not mean I do not reply at all, I meant I don't respond to all the critiques and try to defend myself -- I am no longer the prisoner I once was... I am free.
Free will is a charm. It gives me all kinds of freedoms.

Then please be a charm and stop accusing me of doing things I never did.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please don't accuse me of not having a two-way conversation when there's so much evidence proving that i was, in fact, having a two-way conversation.

You were until the last post, but then you could not help yourself. You had to criticize me and throw out logical fallacies. I don't need to post to people who do that. I have a choice because I have free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't forced you. Your God didn't forced you. You chose to get into this discussion out of your own FREE WILL. So please, take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming others for your inability to defend your arguments.

I could easily defend my arguments but I have free will so I made a choice not to talk to people who cannot talk to me respectfully.

 

[Trailblazer]

Just because your feelings were hurt after I pointed out the numerous fallacious things you said, resulting in you realizing that you didn't have much understanding in logic as you thought you did,

No, that is not what happened. Why do you think you know what other people are thinking? You don't. I did not realize any such thing.

Again, I stop talking to people who cannot talk to me respectfully because I have a choice.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then please be a charm and stop accusing me of doing things I never did.

I did not accuse you of things you never did.

I said:
Please let me know if you ever want to have a two-way discussion rather than telling me what I think and what I believe and why I believe it and calling out fallacies. I don't respond to those kinds of posts anymore because I have free will so I can choose not to.
#303 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 10:50 PM

I said that in response to you doing exactly what I said you did in this post, #302 night912
calling out fallacies and telling me I think my beliefs are illogical. You do not know what I think unless I tell you what I think. You think my beliefs are illogical, I don't think my beliefs are illogical.

Below is what you said. Talking at a person and criticizing them when all they were doing was sharing their beliefs is not what I call a two-way discussion.

So special pleading.

Argument from incredulity.

That's a problem of your belief, not mine.

What arrogance, believing that you know what did outside of the universe, even though you admitted that you're not all knowing.

Appeal to false authority fallacy.

Red herring.

Argument from incredulity

It's not a my problem that you think that your beliefs are illogical, after all, I'm just going by your beliefs.

 

[night912]

I did not accuse you of things you never did.

Yes you did. You accused me of not having a 2-way conversation. Evidence shows, including this one, that we are having a two-way conversation.

I said:
Please let me know if you ever want to have a two-way discussion rather than telling me what I think and what I believe and why I believe it and calling out fallacies. I don't respond to those kinds of posts anymore because I have free will so I can choose not to.
#303 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 10:50 PM

I said that in response to you doing exactly what I said you did in this post, #302 night912
calling out fallacies and telling me I think my beliefs are illogical. You do not know what I think unless I tell you what I think. You think my beliefs are illogical, I don't think my beliefs are illogical.

Below is what you said. Talking at a person and criticizing them when all they were doing was sharing their beliefs is not what I call a two-way discussion.

So special pleading.

Argument from incredulity.

That's a problem of your belief, not mine.

What arrogance, believing that you know what did outside of the universe, even though you admitted that you're not all knowing.

Appeal to false authority fallacy.

Red herring.

Argument from incredulity

It's not a my problem that you think that your beliefs are illogical, after all, I'm just going by your beliefs.

You're wrong. Your ideas are being criticized. Just because you hold those ideas as being important in your life doesn't mean that I was criticizing you as a person.

Sorry but, you come in here on your own free will and share your beliefs just like anyone else, so don't think that you are the only one who can share your beliefs and others can't. This is not a preaching hall for you to come in and deliver a sermon. If you think that you can do that and others can't share their ideas about what you said, then it is you, who doesn't want a two-way conversation. There's no rules on this forum that says you can't debate over beliefs and ideas.

When did I deny about pointing out your fallacies? Please provide evidence for your accusation.

Can you honestly tell me what you mean when you said that I was telling you what you believe. I admit and have never denied about showing you what you shared with the public regarding your beliefs by providing your previous posts whenever I have thoughts about what you said. However, I don't tell you what your beliefs are that you haven't shared with the public. And showing you that your beliefs are illogical is not the same either. Don't confuse the notion that people say your beliefs are illogical with then saying that you are actively believing that your beliefs are is illogical. From what I've observed, for the majority of people(atheists, theists, religious or nonreligious) in here, whenever they talk about believe/beliefs, they are talking about what is being believed. It's the noun that is being discussed, not the verb. Only few people talk about the verb and/or activity believe. Or they only do that when they can no longer defend their position. And if I point out that what you said was fallacious, you can just mature about it and give an explanation as to why it's not, instead of being immature and have a tantrum about it and start using ad hominem attacks and/or accusing me of things I didn't do. I'm open to others giving their thoughts about my ideas, that's how a two-way conversation works. A mature two-way conversation also consists of honestly acknowledging that one's beliefs are true to reality whenever it's present it as truth statements, and not dishonestly change it to merely being an opinion whenever they can no longer defend your position. EX: "I wasn't saying that it's true. It's just my beliefs." Simply not replying back or starting off right away making it clear that it's just a belief one has instead of having a discussion and midway through, change it to that, is a way to having a progressive and respectful discussion.

Sharing ideas and learning new ones in honest and respectful discussions, is a great way of expanding oneself, whether it's spiritually, religiously, scientifically or simply gaining knowledge and wisdom.

Be happy and positive, have a wonderful day.

 

[night912]

Free speech is double edged sword, you can say what you want but others can do the same. So if you handle your ideas getting a beatdown, perhaps you should think about it before you start sharing your ideas to others.

 

[Truthseeker]

Just because your feelings were hurt after I pointed out the numerous fallacious things you said, resulting in
you realizing that you didn't have much understanding in logic as you thought you did, there's no need to play the victim game here. That's childish, something that I wouldn't expect from 50+ year old adult. I didn't forced you. Your God didn't forced you. You chose to get into this discussion out of your own FREE WILL. So please, take responsibility for your actions and stop blaming others for your inability to defend your arguments.

This is so typical of people who take silence as an excuse to say that have an inability to defend their arguments. She won't answer you, was because she is tired of all the crap you were giving her.

 

[rational experiences]

If everyone were rational equal balanced humans our consciousness would exist

It proves it doesn't

Does a human biology own feeling pain?

Yes naturally

So we live trying not to make choices that hurt our bodies as they can feel pain.

If you get bodily sick it sure hurts so we say let's realise what makes and causes us to be sick so we don't have to be sick

Which is a different reasoning to suffering.

As our bodies are created to experience pain by our biology.

So when you preach stop suffering pain you mean the reason for sickness which was science introduced as irradiation causing genetic mutations.

Why once human law forbade the practice of science.

Why we preach stop human suffering.

 

[samtonga43]

This is so typical of people who take silence as an excuse to say that have an inability to defend their arguments. She won't answer you, was because she is tired of all the crap you were giving her.

You say 'crap'
I say 'intelligent response'.

 

[night912]

This is so typical of people who take silence as an excuse to say that have an inability to defend their arguments. She won't answer you, was because she is tired of all the crap you were giving her.

She didn't stay silent. She did replied to me, just not on what I said. So instead of being mature about it and reply to my objections or simply not give a response at all, she was immature and went on a tantrum.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Should God have created a world without suffering? I would say that God DID create a worls without suffering. But then along care Satan and convinced poor dumb humans that they should not follow God's rules for avoiding suffering and it was all over.

 

[night912]

This is so typical of people who take silence as an excuse to say that have an inability to defend their arguments. She won't answer you, was because she is tired of all the crap you were giving her.

What do you consider as "crap?" Is pointing out that her arguments are fallacious, crap? Is the whole notion of sharing one's beliefs and ideas or what one thinks about other's on a public forum, crap? Is having a two-way conversation, crap?

And what do you consider as not being "crap?" Dishonestly tell her that I agree with her beliefs even though i don't? Dishonestly tell her that her arguments are logical when they are in fact, illogical? Allowing her to share her beliefs and ideas on a public forum all she wants, while she doesn't allow others to share their views about it? Not having a two-way conversation by letting her say what she wants only and don't give any feedback what you think about what she said?

Please clarify.