Should Feminists Criticize Abrahamic Religions (more than they do)?

[David1967]

Some engineers might believe that, but then they mature, & become more ignorant.

Man, I must really be maturing then.

 

[icehorse]

But is it inherent in Islam or is it inherent in Middle Eastern culture?
Are women not stoned in the bible?
Do biblical women not have fewer rights than men?
Aren't women supposed to be covered in the bible?

Remember the OP was about Islam AND Christianity.

As for the cultural question, let me ask you this. Do you think there could be any correlation between behaviors and religions when we see across many cultures, many regions, and many generations, certain behaviors tend to follow certain religions?

 

[icehorse]

Feminism is not about equality. It is about women's rights.

Not according to the definition listed in #19 (and BTW, that's a very common definition).

 

[Thanda]

Not according to the definition listed in #19 (and BTW, that's a very common definition).

I know it's a common definition. But the stated definition doesn't fool me.

 

[icehorse]

Often? Please provide some evidence.

Not really. Compared to the West, women in muslim countries seem to have more rights. In an average European country roughly 15-20 percent of the government consists of women and in muslim countries the numbers are almost double.

Evidence?

Are you debating in good faith here? At what point does asking for evidence of that which is in the domain of "common knowledge" become a tactic to divert the conversation?

 

[icehorse]

I know it's a common definition. But the stated definition doesn't fool me.

hmmm... are you proposing that we should use "Thanda's Special Dictionary" for this debate? Where would one procure such a tome?

 

[prometheus11]

hmmm... are you proposing that we should use "Thanda's Special Dictionary" for this debate? Where would one procure such a tome?

This is an entirely different debate: what feminism is. I think the facts are behind Thanda's position...but its not germane to this thread.

 

[Olinda]

It seems to me that both Christianity and Islam are frequently used in misogynistic ways. Examples include:

1 - Restrictions on birth control
2 - Restrictions on abortions
3 - Limitations on voting rights
4 - Honor killings
5 - Limits to employment opportunities
6 - Pay inequities

And so on.

In case after case, we hear religious justifications for such practices. It's true that we occasionally hear feminists criticize religion, it strikes me that what we *should* hear is a much louder and persistent avalanche of criticisms of religion coming from feminists.

Why don't we?

Yes, religious quotes and beliefs are indeed often used to justify male domination. Your post clearly points out the distinction between using religious justification and the religion itself.
Christianity isn't a religion per se; it is an umbrella that covers belief groups from the most liberal and inclusive, to the extremely fundamental, who claim all their behaviors to be bible-based. And of course they are not; OT rules would violate the law in most countries.
I'm less familiar with Islam, but have friends and neighbors whose beliefs are liberal.

Therefore, I think the criticism should be levelled at the use of such justification, rather than the religion.

 

[Thana]

It seems to me that both Christianity and Islam are frequently used in misogynistic ways. Examples include:

1 - Restrictions on birth control
2 - Restrictions on abortions
3 - Limitations on voting rights
4 - Honor killings
5 - Limits to employment opportunities
6 - Pay inequities

And so on.

In case after case, we hear religious justifications for such practices. It's true that we occasionally hear feminists criticize religion, it strikes me that what we *should* hear is a much louder and persistent avalanche of criticisms of religion coming from feminists.

Why don't we?

What would be the point?
Religion is not the cause of sexism. It's just another thing that has sexism in it, Kind of like most things.
It seems foolish to me to focus on one corner whilst missing the overall picture. I'd rather fight sexism itself.

 

[icehorse]

Yes, religious quotes and beliefs are indeed often used to justify male domination. Your post clearly points out the distinction between using religious justification and the religion itself.
Christianity isn't a religion per se; it is an umbrella that covers belief groups from the most liberal and inclusive, to the extremely fundamental, who claim all their behaviors to be bible-based. And of course they are not; OT rules would violate the law in most countries.
I'm less familiar with Islam, but have friends and neighbors whose beliefs are liberal.

Therefore, I think the criticism should be levelled at the use of such justification, rather than the religion.

I'll use the same argument then. If you take that (defend-able) stance, you then must never give religion credit for anything.

 

[icehorse]

What would be the point?
Religion is not the cause of sexism. It's just another thing that has sexism in it, Kind of like most things.
It seems foolish to me to focus on one corner whilst missing the overall picture. I'd rather fight sexism itself.

Because in many societies, it is religious indoctrination that moves sexism forward from generation to generation.

 

[Olinda]

I'll use the same argument then. If you take that (defend-able) stance, you then must never give religion credit for anything.

And I'm fine with that. Each person's journey is her/his own. For some, a particular religious community or belief structure helps, but that's all.

 

[icehorse]

And I'm fine with that. Each person's journey is her/his own. For some, a particular religious community or belief structure helps, but that's all.

Sounds a bit like you're taking the stance of a relativist? If not, what's your moral bedrock?

 

[Olinda]

Sounds a bit like you're taking the stance of a relativist? If not, what's your moral bedrock?

No, I'm not a relativist; thanks for teaching me the term, btw.
My moral bedrock? Love god and your neighbor as yourself. And yes, that makes me a feminist, although I'm more into action than criticism.

Religions are man-made, and all have changed their beliefs, or interpretations of the 'holy book'. In respect for others, I just prefer to promote changes that lead to a better adherence to the golden rule, to criticism of the religion by name.

 

[icehorse]

No, I'm not a relativist; thanks for teaching me the term, btw.
My moral bedrock? Love god and your neighbor as yourself. And yes, that makes me a feminist, although I'm more into action than criticism.

Religions are man-made, and all have changed their beliefs, or interpretations of the 'holy book'. In respect for others, I just prefer to promote changes that lead to a better adherence to the golden rule, to criticism of the religion by name.

Vocabulary lessons are free

So, I'm struggling to understand the rest of your post... I could read it as you saying you agree that we should criticize those religions that work to suppress equality for women. Is that right?

 

[Olinda]

Vocabulary lessons are free

So, I'm struggling to understand the rest of your post... I could read it as you saying you agree that we should criticize those religions that work to suppress equality for women. Is that right?

What I'm trying to say is that we should challenge the interpretations that are used to support male domination, rather than criticizing the whole religion.

 

[icehorse]

What I'm trying to say is that we should challenge the interpretations that are used to support male domination, rather than criticizing the whole religion.

Ah ok. That could be a good strategy - it's certainly better than doing nothing!