Shia hadiths have it designated that "Ahlul-Thikr" is the family of the reminder.

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Salam

I didn't want to derail the thread @justaguy313 so let's have a thread about this issue.

Basaair Al Darajaat – P 1 Ch 19 H 10

I checked the source of the hadith you quoted, I found this to be the header of the title of the hadiths under it:

CHAPTER 19 – REGARDING IMAMSasws OF PROGENYasws OF
MUHAMMADsaww, THEYasws ARE THE PEOPLE OF THE ZIKR,
THOSE ALLAHazwj HAS COMMANDED WITH ASKING
THEMasws, AND THE INSTRUCTIONS ARE UP TO THEM, IF
THEYasws SO DESIRE THEY ANSWER, AND IF THEYasws SO
DESIRES, THEYasws DO NOT ANSWER


The people of the Zikr I would say is better translated as the family of the reminder. I went to the 10th hadith. It said "The Messenger of God and the people of his household are the family of the reminder and they are the Imams/Leaders".

The following is not the best translation of these hadiths, but the book is here: https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/Basaair-AlDarajaat-2Edition/BasaairAlDarajaat-Full.pdf

You can see several chains of hadiths instead in that chapter that all say the Imams (a) are the Ahlul-Thikr.

So whoever quoted that flat out lied to start with. Furthermore, there are many more hadiths including the famous letter of Imam Jaffar (a) that Shiites use to put in their houses a long time ago and hang it on the wall.

Sunnis also narrated that Imam Mohammad Al-Baqir (a) said they are the "ahlul-Thikr", the Sunnis interpret that as the Imam (a) claiming he is just one of the scholars and that the scholars overall are the Ahlul-Thikr.

 

[justaguy313]

Ahlul Bayt are Ahlul Zikr and Ahlul Kitab are People of the Book. Simple as that. Nothing complicated there.

People of the Book - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

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You were saying otherwise in the other thread. But glad we came to an agreement.

 

[justaguy313]

You were saying otherwise in the other thread. But glad we came to an agreement.

No I wasn't. Show me where.

 

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No I wasn't. Show me where.

Christianity vs Islam

That Christ was born through miraculous means is in the Gospels, which you apparently have never read but have the gall to want to lecture Christians about. Hilarious. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke make it clear that Mary was a virgin and Joseph wasn't the father. So how did He come to be if...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[justaguy313]

Christianity vs Islam

That Christ was born through miraculous means is in the Gospels, which you apparently have never read but have the gall to want to lecture Christians about. Hilarious. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke make it clear that Mary was a virgin and Joseph wasn't the father. So how did He come to be if...

www.religiousforums.com

Reminder in that context means People of the Book. 'Dhikr' means 'reminder' or 'remembrance' or 'message.'

Some twelvers use it exclusively for Ahlul Bayt, so if you say Ahlul Zikr it mostly means Ahlul Bayt.

Hope this is clear now

 

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Reminder in that context means People of the Book. 'Dhikr' means 'reminder' or 'remembrance' or 'message.'

Some twelvers use it exclusively for Ahlul Bayt, so if you say Ahlul Zikr it mostly means Ahlul Bayt.

Hope this is clear now

That makes no sense, when Imams (a) refer to the term, they are talking about the reference in Quran and are explaining that the context of the statement in Quran refers to them.

 

[justaguy313]

Who understands will understand and who doesn't won't, what can I tell you

If Abu Jafar a.s. said in a hadith that people of the reminder are also People of the Book, I certainly won't question his narration.

I don't speak arabic, so perhaps there's another arabic term used in a hadith in Basaair Al Daarajat and not Dhikr. I don't know. The hadith is clear, so there's no need to doubt the hadith by Ahlul Bayt.

 

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Who understands will understand and who doesn't won't, what can I tell you

If Abu Jafar a.s. said in a hadith that people of the reminder are also People of the Book, I certainly won't question his narration.

There is no narration, it's a lie by whoever told you that hadith exists in the reference you cited.

 

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And there are plenty of hadiths saying it's not the people of the book.

 

[justaguy313]

And there are plenty of hadiths saying it's not the people of the book.

Really? Where exactly? Please quote them.

 

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I don't speak arabic, so perhaps there's another arabic term used in a hadith in Basaair Al Daarajat and not Dhikr. I don't know. The hadith is clear, so there's no need to doubt the hadith by Ahlul Bayt.

I checked the reference, and told you what the hadith there actually is. Whoever told you this about the hadith in that reference flat out lied to you.

 

[justaguy313]

I checked the reference, and told you what the hadith there actually is. Whoever told you this about the hadith in that reference flat out lied to you.

Well that's odd. Because I quoted the hadith from Tafseer Hubeali which is the same source that you linked Basaair al Darajaat from. So you got a problem with them, not me per say. Now go tell the team who run Tafseer Hubeali that they provide fake hadiths if you must.

 

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Really? Where exactly? Please quote them.

There are many, I will quote three. Two from the same chapter of the same book, that supposedly contained the hadith you quoted:

It is narrated to us by Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Al Husayn Bin Saeed, from Safwan, from Abu Usman, from
Al Moalla Bin Khuneys,
‘From Abu Abdullah (a) regarding the Words of Allah (azwj)
: therefore ask the ahlul-Thikr
if you don’t know [16:43]. He (a) said: ‘They (a) are the family of Muhammad (s).
We mentioned the Hadeeth of Al-Kalby to hima (a) that he said it was regarding the people of
the Book (Jews and Christians)’. He (a) cursed him and belied him’’.

It is narrated to us by Al Sindy Bin Muhammad, from Al A’ala, from Muhammad Bin Muslim,
‘From Abu Ja’far (a), he (the narrator) said, ‘I said to him (a), ‘The ones with us are claiming
that the Words of Allah (azwj)
: therefore ask the people of Al-Zikr if you don’t know [16:43],
they are the Jews and the Christians’.

He (a) said: ‘Then they would be calling to their Religion’. Then he (a) gestured with his (a)
hand to his (a) chest and said: ‘We are the family of the reminder and we are the ones to be asked"

Then there is this hadith https://www.al-islam.org/uyun-akhba...apter-23-al-ridhas-debates-al-mamun-regarding

The relevant part:

The ninth verse of the choice is the Honorable the Exalted God’s words, ‘… ask of the family of the reminder if you do not know41 We - the Prophet’s family - are the family of the reminder.

The scholars said, “In this verse God refers to the Christians and the Jews.” Abul Hassan (a.s.) said, “How is this acceptable? If it is so, then God is asking us to follow their religion, and they can claim that their religion is better than Islam!” Al-Ma’mun said, “O Abul Hassan! Do you have an explanation opposing what they say?”

Abul Hassan (a.s.) said, “Yes. The Reminder referred to in this verse is God’s Messenger. We are his family. This is clear in the Book of the Honorable the Exalted God in Chapter ‘At-Talaq, ‘…Therefore fear Allah, O ye men of understanding - who have believed!- for Allah hath indeed sent down to you a Reminder. A Messenger, who rehearses to you the Signs of Allah containing clear explanations…’42 Thus, the Reminder is God’s Messenger and we are his family. And that was the ninth.

My note: There are also hadiths about the verse saying the reminder is the Quran and the Imams (a) are it's family, these don't contradict but rather they are one reminder, one light, together. Mohammadiya light and Quran is one.

 

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Well that's odd. Because I quoted the hadith from Tafseer Hubeali which is the same source that you linked Basaair al Darajaat from. So you got a problem with them, not me per say. Now go tell the team who run Tafseer Hubeali that they provide fake hadiths if you must.

Where did they reference this hadith as you said. Provide the link and I will send them an email it's a fake hadith.

 

[justaguy313]

Where did they reference this hadith as you said. Provide the link and I will send them an email it's a fake hadith.

I hope this explains your confusion. The hadith isn't fake and it is as I said.

 

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I hope this explains your confusion. The hadith isn't fake and it is as I said.

Liar. It's in none of your scans. The closest thing that comes to it is the one refuting it being Christians and Jews.

 

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And I don't think you are doing an honest mistake anymore.

 

[justaguy313]

Liar. It's in none of your scans. The closest thing that comes to it is the one refuting it being Christians and Jews.

As you say chief, the hadith is right there in the second scan I attached on page 1821 of Tafseer Holy Quran from Tafseer Hubeali website.

 

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And they didn't misquote anything, rather, you are manipulating and quoting a hadith partially, and it's not even with reference you put.