Shankara was wrong: Integral Advaitism by Sri Aurobindo

[Pleroma]

Let me add something before I read the last two posts. During the assimilation of Aryans in Hinduism, Aryans accepted to worship the indigenous Gods and Goddesses. In return Vedas and Sanskrit was accepted by the indigenous. However, Aryan Gods were pushed to secondary positions. It worked to the benefit of both parties. Well, if my forebears accepted it, I have no problem with it. It is a desrespect to my forebears to go back on an arrangement. Let the neo-Aryans do it.

Baseless assertions. Your forebears were Aryans and not non-Aryans because Rig Veda originated in India and were revealed to Indian people way before any of your indigenous deities ever existed. The truth is Puranic Hinduism is just a commentary on the Vedic Hinduism. Puranic deities are just a manifestation of Vedic deities. You are no different from the British who divided India and ruled India by creating such fanciful speculations like you have done here.

Buddha an enemy. That is outright disgusting. I think you also consider Jainism and Sikhism as your enemies by the same measure. Mahavira and Guru Nanak, also spoke against Vedas. Of course, Christians, Muslims, and Jews would be like Ravana and Kamsa to you. With these views, what do you want to achieve in Hinduism DIR? Is that what you have learned from Vivekananda and Aurobindo?

Vivekananda while he was in body didn't knew these truths but he later gave those truths to Aurobindo in a vision while he was in jail.

"Vivekananda came and gave me the knowledge of the intuitive mentality. I had not the last idea about it at that time. He too did not have it when he was in the body. He gave me detailed knowledge illustrating each point. The contact lasted about three weeks and then he withdrew".

Sri Aurobindo

Vedas embrace hard polytheism and by this very definition Christians, Muslims and Jews who are monotheists and Buddhists and Jains who are atheistic become our direct enemies.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Vaishnavaites believe that all Buddhists are cheated by Buddha deliberately for a good reason, they believe that Buddhists worship God in a different way which is the most foolish and absurd argument I have ever heard. Buddhists don't give a damn about Vishnu. I don't know when these deluded Vaishnavaites open their eyes and realize the truth of Buddhism.

please please , this is not quite what us dumb Vaishnavites beleive , in first instance it is an explanation not an argument .

but may I please ask a question

as your religion you state , ...

Valentinianism, Sauram, Tibetan Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism and Neoplatonism.

As you will probably remember from previous posts half of my adult life I studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism and the remainder I have spent amongst Vaisnavas , ....

so please tell me how can someone who identifies listing Tibetan Buddhism amongst his religious affiliations speak out so vhemently against Buddhism and against the Buddha ?

Vedas and the Upanishads are not there in Buddhism and hence all Hindus should reject it.

Wrong, there are not many Buddhas among Hindus. Buddhism was thrown out of India by Shankara and we will never allow it to raise its head in India again ever. There are many Shaivas, Vaishnavaites, Shaktas and Smarthas among Hindus not Buddhas.

I reject it if there is anything in the Puranas which is in contradictory with the Vedas. If there is any contradictory verse to the Vedas in the Bhagavad Gita even Bhagavad gita should be rejected. Vedas form the highest authority in Hinduism and nothing surpasses it.

but amongst your religious affinities you claim Tibetan Buddhism , how do you squair tibetan Buddhism with the vedas but reject Buddhism as a whole ?

It is a serious crime, it is offending to serious Hindus that you by claiming yourself to be a Hindu you are actually associating yourself with Buddha who is our enemy and who wants to destroy the Vedas. You are almost like a traitor to Hinduism. I am a Hindu and I have every right to object things which are not good for the future of Hinduism. Yes you are free to believe what you want that's why I am asking you to leave Hinduism DIR and join the Buddhism DIR since you have so much reverence for Buddha rather than the Vedic gods.

you claim affinity with Tibetan Buddhism , but you say this , ...

you say ''our enemy '' so it would appear that you are speaking as a Hindu , ......'' I am a Hindu and I have every right to object things which are not good for the future of Hinduism.''.....

you are asking others to leave Hinduism DIR yet yio identify as Tibetan Buddhist , ...

therfore I must please politely ask you to remove this title from your religious affinities if you widh to speek so damningly of Buddhism .

To my mind it is a sad day when Hinduism becomes blind to Sanatana Dharma and begins to reject other Dharmic faiths , if you are incouraging such a rejection you are accelerating this Kail yuga , this age of Darkness , ....which both Hindus and Buddhists readily accept .

 

[ratikala]

Baseless assertions. Your forebears were Aryans and not non-Aryans because Rig Veda originated in India

Bharat Varsha , ....not india , ... Bharat varsha ....

Buddhists and Jains who are atheistic become our direct enemies.

Buddhists are not Atheists , we are non theists , we are not your enemys we are your Brothers

only Adharmi's are the enemys of Hinduism , and since Buddhists are nor Adharmi's we are all Sanatana Dharmi

 

[Chakra]

I'm curious on your opinion of Vaishnavas, Pleroma. Are we part of Sanatana Dharma, or we also part of the Abrahamic Religions since we aren't hard polytheist which is what the Vedas say as you've clearly explained.

 

[Fireside_Hindu]

I'm finding this entire thread exhausting just reading it. I don't understand why these names are so important. Maybe I should read more, although all it seems to do is make people itch for an argument. I vote for being generous, compassionate and patient with people. It doesn't take someone's voluminous literary work to foster that. We learn it from our families and friends (if we're paying attention anyway). Intelligence and education are important to but only insofar as they contribute to harmonious discussion and self improvement. All I get from this thread is, "I'M BETTER THAN YOU. WHY DON'T YOU LOVE ME?" It's like a bad soap opera, guys.

 

[Maya3]

It´s silly.
Since when do we have enemies?

This is thread is not appropriate at all.

Maya

 

[Pleroma]

Give me the reference in RigVeda where Rudra is mentioned as Shiva and Gayatri is mentioned as Durga. Only a small number of Hindus know about Vedic Gods let alone worship them. Of Vedas 75% of Hindus know nothing about. So you term all these as non-Hindus. Accepting indigenous Gods and Goddesses is the mark of Hinduism, accepting Vedas is only secondary.

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

1 WHAT shall we sing to Rudra, strong, most bounteous, excellently wise,
That shall be dearest to his heart?
2 That Aditi may grant the grace of Rudra to our folk, our kine,
Our cattle and our progeny;
3 That Mitra and that Varuna, that Rudra may remember us,
Yea, all the Gods with one accord.
4 To Rudra Lord of sacrifice, of hymns and balmy medicines,
We pray for joy and health and strength.
5 He shines in splendour like the Sun, refulgent as bright gold is he,
The good, the best among the Gods.
6 May he grant health into our steeds, wellbeing to our rams and ewes,
To men, to women, and to kine.
7 O Soma, set thou upon us the glory of a hundred men,
The great renown of mighty chiefs.
8 Let not malignities, nor those who trouble Soma, hinder us.
Indu, give us a share of strength.
9 Soma! head, central point, love these; Soma! know these as serving thee,
Children of thee Immortal, at the highest place of holy law.

HYMN CXIV. Rudra.

1. To the strong Rudra bring we these our songs of praise, to him the Lord of Heros with the braided hair,
That it be well with all our cattle and our men, that in this village all he healthy and well-fed.
2 Be gracious unto us, O Rudra, bring us joy: thee, Lord of Heroes, thee with reverence will we serve.
Whatever health and strength our father Manu won by sacrifice may we, under thy guidance, gain.
3 By worship of the Gods may we, O Bounteous One, O Rudra, gain thy grace, Ruler of valiant men.
Come to our families, bringing them bliss: may we, whose heroes are uninjured, bring thee sacred gifts,
4 Hither we call for aid the wise, the wanderer, impetuous Rudra, perfecter of sacri fice.
May he repel from us the anger of the Gods: verily we desire his favourable grace.
5 Him with the braided hair we call with reverence down, the wild-boar of the sky, the red, the dazzling shape.
May he, his hand filled full of sovran medicines, grant us protection, shelter, and a home secure.
6 To him the Maruts' Father is this hymn addressed, to strengthen Rudra's might, a song more sweet than sweet.
Grant us, Immortal One, the food which mortals eat: be gracious unto me, my seed, my progeny.
7 O Rudra, harm not either great or small of us, harm not the growing boy, harm not the full-grown man.
Slay not a sire among us, slay no mother here, and to our own dear bodies, Rudra, do not harm.
8 Harm us not, Rudra, in our seed and progeny, harm us not in the living, nor in cows or steeds,
Slay not our heroes in the fury of thy wrath. Bringing oblations evermore we call to thee.
9 Even as a herdsman I have brought thee hymns of praise: O Father of the Maruts, give us happiness,
Blessed is thy most favouring benevolence, so, verily, do we desire thy saving help.
10 Far be thy dart that killeth men or cattle: thy bliss be with us, O thou Lord of Heroes.
Be gracious unto us, O God, and bless us, and then vouchsafe us doubly-strong protection.
11 We, seeking help, have spoken and adored him: may Rudra, girt by Maruts, hear our calling.
This prayer of ours may Varuna grant, and Mitra, and Aditi and Sindhu, Earth and Heaven.


Aryan doesn't mean race or tribe. Aryan means noble pious people who are well known for their wisdom, learning and large-heartedness.

While the word may ultimately derive from a tribal name, already in the Rigveda it appears as a religious distinction, separating those who sacrifice "properly" from those who do not belong to the historical Vedic religion, presaging the usage in later Hinduism where the term comes to denote religious righteousness or piety. In RV 9.63.5, ârya "noble, pious, righteous" is used as contrasting with árāvan "not liberal, envious, hostile":

índraṃ várdhanto aptúraḥ kṛṇvánto víśvam âryam apaghnánto árāvṇaḥ
"[the Soma-drops], performing every noble work, active, augmenting Indra's strength, driving away the godless ones." (trans. Griffith)

Only those who follow the Historical Vedic religion are Aryans and the rest are Anaryans.

 

[Pleroma]

Advaita is definitely similar to Buddhism, agreed. But what I didn't like was calling him a crypto-Buddhist. Is there really a need? You've offended 2 religions at the same time.

Shankara was a Mayavadi and hence he should be called as a crypto-Buddhist.

Also, why do you have Tibetan Buddhism as your religion when you despise Buddha so much?

The Tantra of Vajrayana, deity yoga, mandalas and other things are all elements of Vedic Hinduism and hence I am inclined to it. Padmasambhava, the second Buddha brought those teachings into Tibet from India. I respect Buddha for what he is but not more than the Vedic rishis.

 

[Pleroma]

It´s silly.
Since when do we have enemies?

This is thread is not appropriate at all.

Maya

Polytheists are described as the worse creatures of all in the Bible and the Quran and it is literally stated that polytheists should be stoned to death, their pregnant women should be killed and their babies should be dashed against the rocks. Christian and Islamic fundamentalists literally believe that Hindu gods are the devils and assert that they are false. You might not consider them as your enemies but they certainly do.

 

[Pleroma]

That's new. Do they really want to destroy the Vedas and Upanishads, or do they just not put any authority on it? As an example, do I want to destroy the Vayu Purana just because I don't put any authority on it?

Shankara did destroyed Purva Mimamsa, the precious Vedic rituals of the Aryans.

That sounds similar to what Shankara says.

We don't disagree much with what Shankara says but only his theory of superimposition or Mayavada, his argument that world is an illusion is what we reject.

 

[Maya3]

Polytheists are described as the worse creatures of all in the Bible and the Quran and it is literally stated that polytheists should be stoned to death, their pregnant women should be killed and their babies should be dashed against the rocks. Christian and Islamic fundamentalists literally believe that Hindu gods are the devils and assert that they are false. You might not consider them as your enemies but they certainly do.

All of them certainly don´t.
And we Hindus certainly should not do the same.

I´m withdrawing from this conversation now. I don´t want to debate this with you.

Maya

 

[Pleroma]

Buddhists do worship the truth in a different way, just like how some Neo Advaitins worship the truth as a void.
Shankara and Madhva have called Buddha as an partial Avatar of Lord Vishnu, so there is a lot of support of the idea.

Shankara criticized Buddha and rejected his philosophy completely in Brahma Sutra Bhashya by saying that men who are looking for happiness should discard absurd theories postulated by Shankara.

Animal sacrifices are barbaric. It's only lawful if a person cannot control its tongue and specific rituals are done so the animal will get punya. Even then, it is done for moderation, not to recommend meat-eating.
Your comment on Aup being inclined to Buddha is ridiculous.

Its not, ancient Hindus ate beef. Cow slaughtering is perfectly fine, I go by truth not by sentiments.

Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 6.4.18 He who wishes that a son should be born to him who would be a reputed scholar, frequenting the assemblies and speaking delightful words, would study all the Vedas and attain a full term of life, should have rice cooked with the meat of a vigorous bull or one more advanced in years, and he and his wife should eat it with clarified butter. Then they would be able to produce such a son.

As Aup said, quantum physics does not talk about Vedas and Upanishads. Should we reject such a well developed theory just because our texts are not there? You make it seem that anyone who doesn't accept the Vedas or Upanishads are vile miscreants who are the lowest of humanity. I'm sure Buddhists are more respectful than you.

Actually quantum physics is pointing to Hindu gods in case you didn't know.

"Is it not good to know what follows from what, even if it is not necessary FAPP? [FAPP is Bell's disparaging abbreviation of "for all practical purposes."] Suppose for example that quantum mechanics were found to resist precise formulation. Suppose that when formulation beyond FAPP is attempted, we find an unmovable finger obstinately pointing outside the subject, to the mind of the observer, to the Hindu scriptures, to God, or even only Gravitation? Would that not be very, very interesting?"

John Bell

So, now you admit that Shankara was involved in the removal of Buddhism from India, yet you still call him a crypto-Buddhist.

Shankara criticizes Buddha and dismisses his philosophy. Aurobindo criticizes Shankara and dismisses Advaita of Shankara.

Okay, but there is nothing in the BG that is contradictory to the Vedas.
Vedas form the highest authority in Hinduism, fine. But that doesn't mean we can't use Smriti to help interpret the Vedas. After all, both were authored by the same person.

That's right, I just cited BG to show Aup that Vedas form the highest authority in Hinduism.

You are an interesting person, Pleroma. You first say that Vishnu, Shiva, and Durga are not Vedic Gods, and then say that they ARE Vedic Gods.

Hindu Puranic gods are a manifestation of Vedic gods.

You say that Shankara was involved in making Buddhism diminish in India, yet still call him a crypto-Buddhist.

The rishi of the Isha Upanishad Yajnavalkya refutes Shankara that's why he is called as a crypto-Buddhist.

You call Shankara a champion of Sauram (which he was not), yet call him a polluter of the original Advaitic system.

Shankara is indeed a polluter of the original Advaitic system. I didn't called Shankara a champion of Sauram. Sauram existed during the time of Shankara Bhagvadpada but he didn't knew what to do with this sect and hence considered it as a separate sect because Sauras worshipped Surya as a direct manifestation of Saguna Brahman.

Also, let me know how many Advaitic thinkers before Aurobindo talked about Integral Advaitism.
To me, it just seems as an amalgamation of Dvaitic, Visishtadvaitic, and Advaitic thinking. Not new to Neo-Advaita, I suppose.

Regards

To refute Aurobindo you have to refute the Maharshi Yajnavalkya.

 

[Pleroma]

I'm curious on your opinion of Vaishnavas, Pleroma. Are we part of Sanatana Dharma, or we also part of the Abrahamic Religions since we aren't hard polytheist which is what the Vedas say as you've clearly explained.

Well, I hope you know that in the past Vedas were formulated by different clan of Rishis, one clan of rishis were highly specialized in the worship of Fire and they regarded Agni as supreme, there were sun worshippers and they regarded Surya as supreme, there were moon worshippers and they regarded Soma as supreme and others regarded Indra as supreme. Vaishnavas are experts in the worship of Lord Narayana and believe Vishnu as supreme. We all are part of the Sanatana Dharma, of course.

dhyEyas sadA savitru maNDala madhyavartI
nArAyaNa: sarasijAsana sanniviShTa: |
kEyUravAn makarakuNDalavAn kirITI
hArI hiraNmaya vapu: dhruta shankha chakra: ||

 

[Pleroma]

All of them certainly don´t.
And we Hindus certainly should not do the same.

I´m withdrawing from this conversation now. I don´t want to debate this with you.

Maya

Did Krishna taught Arjuna to retreat from the war or did he teach to take up his weapons and fight back?

 

[Aupmanyav]

HYMN XLIII. Rudra.

Yes, Rudra has five hymns dedicated to him in RigVeda. But the question was whether Rudra is Shiva or not.

Christian and Islamic fundamentalists literally believe that Hindu gods are the devils and assert that they are false. You might not consider them as your enemies but they certainly do.

We were talking of Buddhism and you give your view on Christians and Muslims.

Shankara did destroyed Purva Mimamsa, the precious Vedic rituals of the Aryans.

A strong thing does not get destroyed, the weak thing perishes.

 

[Pleroma]

Yes, Rudra has five hymns dedicated to him in RigVeda. But the question was whether Rudra is Shiva or not.

Which God lives in Rudra Bhumi? Of course, its Shiva.

We were talking of Buddhism and you give your view on Christians and Muslims.A strong thing does not get destroyed, the weak thing perishes.

Buddhists are no different from Christians and Muslims when it comes to making Hinduism to go extinct, the latter do it with violence and active conversions while the former do it with taking advantage of those Hindus who clearly lack knowledge of their traditions and draw them towards philosophies which are non-Vedic and non-Hindu.

Many religions in the past have gone extinct and your hatredness towards the Vedas and people like you are enough to make the Hindu traditions to go extinct. Already we have lost many knowledge of the Vedas and instead of preserving the Vedas you want to divide India now.

 

[Chakra]

All of them certainly don´t.
Maya

But some of them certainly do, and it's important to remember that. It is realistic that there are atheists and anti-Hindus that do not like our religions (as they consider it "stupid" or imaginary") and would be fine if Hinduism ceased to exist one day. That's fine, it's human nature to be against something that isn't related to you.

Did Krishna taught Arjuna to retreat from the war or did he teach to take up his weapons and fight back?

If there are Buddhists who wish to defeat Hinduism with intellectual arguments, then fine, we have our own scholars who can defend Hinduism. If there are Buddhists who want to take violent opposition to Hinduism, then we will talk about how to stop them then. But it's not reasonable to call every Buddhist as an enemy of Hinduism. Most of them admire Hinduism and even worship our Gods.

 

[Poeticus]

Shankara did destroyed Purva Mimamsa

This is a severe, and quite a popular, misunderstanding. I offer the following not to derive a change in mind, but to simply inform future readers that may come across this thread on how and why this is so.

Like all karmakandin paths, the main aspect that characterizes their survival is that of maintenance. As one can easily see, by visiting various locations in Kerala, and even in Kashi for that matter, many yajna-s are still properly conducted. The mere act of conducting them to the exclusion of involving jnana-centric, and even bhakti-centric, approaches makes them of the Purva Mimamsa. Granted, however, is the fact that Purva Mimamsa as a philosophical darshana no longer exists (or rather, is not tangibly extant).

We must take into account that Purva Mimamsa pretty much evaporated after Shri Kumarila Bhatta, probably the greatest polemicist Bharat has ever seen, self-immolated himself. With his passing, the maintaining of such a karmakandin path would definitely have gotten quite difficult, no? There was no longer such a refined and more experienced Mimamsa polemicist than him, surely not the Bhaskara-s.

And when there wasn't such an ardent opponent left, the Vedantists, Shankara more specifically, would surely have gotten the upper hand in the post-Kumarila encounters they must have had (since he was pretty much the "next best thing"; next best debater). I am of the view, however, that if Kumarila did not self-immolate himself and the two really went at it, Kumarila would definitely have won. This is, after all, the Kumarila Bhatta we're talking about, bested only by, as per a few Buddhist accounts, by the great Bharatiya lion that was Dharmakirti.

Random note: Just imagine a Bharat that is free from Adharmic trespasses and incursions. And Kumarila and Dharmakirti (or Kumarila and Shankara, even) are summoned at one of the grandest halls in, say, Kashmir. It is a "sold-out" venue, and throngs of people from various Dharmic backgrounds have come. The Nyaya-s arbitrate the event, and before our eyes are two legendary peeps engaging in their legendary debates. *Sign me up. Send me back. And throw away the time-machine, because I ain't evah comin' back!*

 

[Aupmanyav]

Which God lives in Rudra Bhumi? Of course, its Shiva.

Actually, it is Rudra who came and happily settled in Shiva Bhumi.

 

[Pleroma]

namaskaram
please please , this is not quite what us dumb Vaishnavites beleive , in first instance it is an explanation not an argument .

That's exactly the opinion of Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada, the founder of ISCKON.

but may I please ask a question

as your religion you state , ...

As you will probably remember from previous posts half of my adult life I studied and practiced Tibetan Buddhism and the remainder I have spent amongst Vaisnavas , ....

so please tell me how can someone who identifies listing Tibetan Buddhism amongst his religious affiliations speak out so vhemently against Buddhism and against the Buddha ?

Its because Vajrayana is not Tibetan Buddhism, its Indian Hindu Tantra.

but amongst your religious affinities you claim Tibetan Buddhism , how do you squair tibetan Buddhism with the vedas but reject Buddhism as a whole ?

Its Padmasambhava, the second Buddha whose doctrines are very much in line with the Vedas. Padmasambhava is the founder of Tibetan Buddhism.

you claim affinity with Tibetan Buddhism , but you say this , ...

you say ''our enemy '' so it would appear that you are speaking as a Hindu , ......'' I am a Hindu and I have every right to object things which are not good for the future of Hinduism.''.....

you are asking others to leave Hinduism DIR yet yio identify as Tibetan Buddhist , ...

therfore I must please politely ask you to remove this title from your religious affinities if you widh to speek so damningly of Buddhism .

I reject Zen and Theravada Buddhism but accept Tibetan Buddhism which is one of the religions I believe in. Why should I not identify with Tibetan Buddhism?

To my mind it is a sad day when Hinduism becomes blind to Sanatana Dharma and begins to reject other Dharmic faiths , if you are incouraging such a rejection you are accelerating this Kail yuga , this age of Darkness , ....which both Hindus and Buddhists readily accept .

Sanatanists are not the only Hindus and they don't get to define what Hinduism is. Its the Vedas which defines what Hinduism is.