Sexist Women Like Sexist Men

[Sunstone]

A couple new studies out of the University of Kansas seem to have found the reason sexist pick up advice works:

Women who are charmed by the tactics found in manuals like Neil Strauss' "The Game" are generally either interested in casual sex -- or they're sexist.
​

In other words, it is not -- as Strauss and other pick up artists sometimes say -- that all women secretly want casual sex or a sexist mate, but that only some do. That of course seems obvious. But even if it is obvious, it is still disputed by many people who assert that all women secretly want and desire sexist males.

In two different studies -- the first of college students, the second of a national representative sample -- researchers at the University of Kansas analyzed the degree of people's sexist beliefs and interest in no-strings hookups. They compared those results with women's receptiveness to, and men's use of, pickup artist techniques. In particular, they focused in on three of the strategies used by Mystery: Isolating "the target" from her friends, subtly insulting her to lower her sense of self-worth (a.k.a. "negging") and competing with other males to become "the leader of the pack."


The results make perfect sense: Women who want a no-strings hookup are attracted to men who clearly broadcast their interest in sex, and ladies who subscribe to sexual stereotypes about their own gender will take a liking to aggressively dominant men.
​

Moreover, the women are not merely receptive to sexist men or to men seeking casual sex, but are also actively sorting through men to find the ones who are sexist or seeking casual sex:

What's especially interesting about this study is that it not only confirms that there are sexist ideas behind pickup artist strategies -- as has often been the criticism -- but it also shows that sexist women are complicit. "Women are not just sexual gatekeepers," he says. "It's not like they're helpless, non-participants in this interaction. Instead, sexist women are essentially choosing sexist men." This is what's called "assortment mating" in social psychology – basically, people tend to unconsciously filter out dissimilar individuals.
​

I often hear it said that women prefer abusive guys to non-abusive guys. I have long suspected that is true only of certain women, and not of all women. Although these studies only obliquely address the issue of abuse -- which is a much broader issue than sexism alone -- the studies do seem to add support to the notion that not all women are attracted to abusive guys.

 

[Karl R]

I often hear it said that women prefer abusive guys to non-abusive guys. I have long suspected that is true only of certain women, and not of all women.

This study doesn't distinguish between what women are attracted to (initially) and what they will accept in the long run.

I grew up in a family where mental illness is rather prevalent. I do not prefer being around people with mental illness. However, due to my background, I'll accept it a lot more than people who grew up in more normal families.

Because I spent 18 years in the constant company of people who were mentally ill, their behavior seems normal to me. Other people have alarm bells going off about the abnormal behavior long before I'll notice it.

The women who grew up in abusive families (and consequently are most likely to accept such behavior towards them) don't recognize the early warning signals that would have most women running from a relationship. By the time the abuser shows his true colors, the women are already heavily invested in the relationship, and possibly even dependent upon the man.

In other words, it is not -- as Strauss and other pick up artists sometimes say -- that all women secretly want casual sex or a sexist mate,

While I disagree with the pick-up artists' assertion, I do agree with one part of it:
"What a woman says she wants and what she responds to are two different things."

In the initial stages of a relationship, women respond strongly to men who appear confident, etc. In the long run, most make their decision based upon more substantive qualities. However, if a man lacks the superficial traits which get his foot in the door, he won't be around for her to evaluate his more substantive qualities. (For men, the initial qualities differ, but the overall principal holds true.)

But the strategy doesn't have to work with all women in order to be successful. It just needs to work with enough women.

 

[Sunstone]

This study doesn't distinguish between what women are attracted to (initially) and what they will accept in the long run.

I grew up in a family where mental illness is rather prevalent. I do not prefer being around people with mental illness. However, due to my background, I'll accept it a lot more than people who grew up in more normal families.

Because I spent 18 years in the constant company of people who were mentally ill, their behavior seems normal to me. Other people have alarm bells going off about the abnormal behavior long before I'll notice it.

The women who grew up in abusive families (and consequently are most likely to accept such behavior towards them) don't recognize the early warning signals that would have most women running from a relationship. By the time the abuser shows his true colors, the women are already heavily invested in the relationship, and possibly even dependent upon the man.

That's an interesting distinction between what a person will be attracted to and what a person will accept. I have a friend who is a therapist with two or three decades of experience. He tells me that, in his experience, people both repeat the relationships they had with their most important caregivers while growing up, and they try to solve the problems they had with that caregiver's style of intimacy.

For instance, if their most important caregiver while they were growing up was their mother, and if their mother was cold and distant, then they will (almost always unconsciously) seek out people who are cold and distant for intimate relationships as an adult. Furthermore, they will work to resolve the issues they had with their mother using their adult partner as a sort of proxy.

According to my friend, there are a number of possible outcomes. For instance, a person might end up stuck for life with a cold and distant partner who does not change. Or, they might end up with a partner who does change. Or they might recognize the emotional limitations of their partner are their partner's fault, have nothing to do with them, and then move on to a warmer relationship with someone else. Etc.

While I disagree with the pick-up artists' assertion, I do agree with one part of it:
"What a woman says she wants and what she responds to are two different things."

In the initial stages of a relationship, women respond strongly to men who appear confident, etc. In the long run, most make their decision based upon more substantive qualities. However, if a man lacks the superficial traits which get his foot in the door, he won't be around for her to evaluate his more substantive qualities. (For men, the initial qualities differ, but the overall principal holds true.)

But the strategy doesn't have to work with all women in order to be successful. It just needs to work with enough women.

I think some people are much more aware of themselves than others. So, while some people say they are attracted to one thing, but respond to another, there are other people who know very accurately what they are attracted to.

 

[Father Heathen]

It should be no surprise that shallow courting tactics score shallow partners.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This study is going to hurt somebody.

 

[freethinker44]

Awesome. I have always said "If you want to pick up a woman at a bar, all you have to do is ask them if they want to have sex. If you ask 100, odds are at least one will say yes." And now it appears that science, or some commercial interpretation of it, backs me up. Of course there is a downside to everything and even though you could score once every night, the price is being slapped in the face 99 times.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Awesome. I have always said "If you want to pick up a woman at a bar, all you have to do is ask them if they want to have sex. If you ask 100, odds are at least one will say yes." And now it appears that science, or some commercial interpretation of it, backs me up. Of course there is a downside to everything and even though you could score once every night, the price is being slapped in the face 99 times.

Yes, but will the one who says yes be someone that you want to have sex with?

If you're unattractive to 99% of women, the willing 1% probably is not cream of the crop.

 

[freethinker44]

Yes, but will the one who says yes be someone that you want to have sex with?

If you're unattractive to 99% of women, the willing 1% probably is not cream of the crop.

Does it matter?

 

[Songbird]

So I've heard this in various conversations lately - women say they want respectful men but are actually attracted to jerks. But in the friendships I can think of, it's vastly not true. Perhaps it's the stage of life I'm in that attracts similar friends with similar long-term relationships, and maybe younger folks in the dating scene encounter this more.

But are those jerks and sexist people actually having much luck finding partners? Or rather, are they having more success than nice people? I avoid jerks and gravitate toward people with manners and humor, so maybe this demographic flies under my radar.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Does it matter?

It does if you get lost while she crushes your spine.

 

[freethinker44]

It does if you get lost while she crushes your spine.

Hey now, some people pay good money for that.

 

[Sunstone]

I avoid jerks...

But I thought you liked me!

 

[Sunstone]

This study is going to hurt somebody.

How so? Who does it hurt?

 

[Sunstone]

This is the part of the article that interested me the most:

They compared those results with women's receptiveness to, and men's use of, pickup artist techniques. In particular, they focused in on three of the strategies used by Mystery: Isolating "the target" from her friends, subtly insulting her to lower her sense of self-worth (a.k.a. "negging") and competing with other males to become "the leader of the pack."
​

I've seen guys do that, and I've seen some women respond favorably to it. I've wondered why anyone would respond favorably to it?

 

[Sunstone]

So I've heard this in various conversations lately - women say they want respectful men but are actually attracted to jerks. But in the friendships I can think of, it's vastly not true.

I've heard that too -- that women say they want respectful men but are actually attracted to jerks -- but I seriously doubt most women are secretly attracted to jerks. For one thing, there would be a hell of a lot more jerks if that were so.

 

[Penumbra]

The results of the study seem to be true to me. Some women want certain things, and other women want other things. The notion that people secretly want something is incorrect.

For many mammals, being the alpha male is good for having sex. It's not surprising that there are aspects of this in humanity as well. But humans seem a lot more complex than that.

I'd wager that most women want a man who is assertive, confident, able, and yet also compassionate and sweet. The best of both worlds. But such a man is essentially above average. Basically by definition, there aren't enough above average men to go around, so jerks and pushovers enter the equation as well. It wouldn't be surprising to me that, between the two, jerks have more luck with women.

For the most part, people I consider friends don't fall for jerks. They're smarter than that. But, I did have one good friend, who I don't talk with very much with anymore, who once found out she had sex with a pickup artist. She's a strong, smart, dynamic, deep, kind, educated, interesting person- and she liked it. So .

This is the part of the article that interested me the most:

They compared those results with women's receptiveness to, and men's use of, pickup artist techniques. In particular, they focused in on three of the strategies used by Mystery: Isolating "the target" from her friends, subtly insulting her to lower her sense of self-worth (a.k.a. "negging") and competing with other males to become "the leader of the pack."
​

I've seen guys do that, and I've seen some women respond favorably to it. I've wondered why anyone would respond favorably to it?

As far as negging is concerned, I think there is a subtle difference between a positive form of teasing, and insulting to lower a sense of self worth.

Some guys, when courting, shower the woman with compliments. Although compliments are nice, it can go too far, and being put on a pedestal is often not too attractive. Friends often tactfully tease each other, and so a man who teases a woman he's interested in can be a positive thing, and often acts as a show of confidence and comfort. Woman do it to men, too. Whether teasing a person is negative or positive depends on the context and the character of those involved.

I suspect that both negging and a more positive form of playful teasing work for the same reason, but one is negative and the other is fine.

 

[Sunstone]

Some guys, when courting, shower the woman with compliments. Although compliments are nice, it can go too far, and being put on a pedestal is often not too attractive. Friends often tactfully tease each other, and so a man who teases a woman he's interested in can be a positive thing, and often acts as a show of confidence and comfort. Woman do it to men, too. Whether teasing a person is negative or positive depends on the context and the character of those involved.

I suspect that both negging and a more positive form of playful teasing work for the same reason, but one is negative and the other is fine.

Sometimes when you compliment a woman who is not accustomed to hearing many accurate compliments of her, she thinks you've put her on a pedestal when in fact all you've really done is point out some of her more obvious qualities. I try to forgive her for that, even though it's obvious she is an idiot not to know what a great person she is.

 

[Sunstone]

I doubt these two studies by themselves will really lay to rest the somewhat popular notion that all women prefer jerks. People like to believe that for some reason.

 

[Karl R]

I think some people are much more aware of themselves than others. So, while some people say they are attracted to one thing, but respond to another, there are other people who know very accurately what they are attracted to.

This isn't simply a matter of self-knowledge. Part of it has to do with what she'll admit to to other people.

If a woman asks me what attracted me to her in the first place, the accurate answer might be, "your breasts," but I'm never going to admit that to anyone but myself.

So I've heard this in various conversations lately - women say they want respectful men but are actually attracted to jerks. [...] But are those jerks and sexist people actually having much luck finding partners? Or rather, are they having more success than nice people?

I think that myth is perpetuated by men/boys who lack confidence (and therefore have poor luck with women). They look around at the men who are having luck, and they see that a number of them are jerks. They ascribe the success to the wrong trait.

Being a jerk doesn't help men attract women. (In the short-term, it doesn't interfere as much as you would expect, but it definitely doesn't help.) It's traits like confidence, decisiveness and extroversion that attract women.

Also, the men who make this claim like to think of themselves as being nice, but some of the traits they label as "nice" really aren't. (I was this way about 20 years ago, so I've had the opportunity to evaluate my actions in hindsight.) For example, I thought of myself as being "nice" because I'd get to know a woman as a friend before trying to begin a relationship with her. If my primary reason for befriending her was to eventually begin a romantic relationship, then I don't see how that was necessarily "nicer" than a man who tried to start out with a romantic relationship.

As I've grown older, I've come to the conclustions that being confident helps get a girlfriend in the short-term. And being nice helps keep a girlfriend in the long-term.

 

[Penumbra]

Sometimes when you compliment a woman who is not accustomed to hearing many accurate compliments of her, she thinks you've put her on a pedestal when in fact all you've really done is point out some of her more obvious qualities. I try to forgive her for that, even though it's obvious she is an idiot not to know what a great person she is.

I think there is a difference between not being able to take appropriate compliments, and feeling overwhelmed with too many unnecessary compliments. One of them is insecurity with the one receiving the compliments, and one may be perceived as insecurity of the one giving the compliments.

It's not a matter of how many compliments are given, it's a matter of a number of variables about the character of the person giving them. People have different ways of expressing themselves, and some tend to give more genuine compliments than others, but some people have a tendency to put the person they like on a pedestal, and shower her with awkward compliments.

In addition to compliments, intimate and friendly teasing is fun. It loosens people up, it makes it a challenge, it's a show of comfort and confidence, etc. But there are jerks that do the wrong sort of teasing, and it's not with good intentions. There are jokes that build up, and there are jokes that tear down.