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Seed of the Woman.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
But as one familiar with science, you can't fail to be aware that the science of the bible is the science of its time ─ a flat earth, a geocentric universe, the stars affixed to the 'firmament', a hard dome over the earth, so that when detached they can fall to earth; and much more. (>Here<'s a glance at what the bible says of its own cosmology.) . . .These are historically interesting, but as statements about reality we (now) know they're not accurate, not true.

Karl Popper, my favorite philosopher/historian of science and the scientific-method, claims that modern science arose from the very myths you poo poo. He goes further by brilliantly pointing out that some classical physical models look as absurd in the light of quantum physics as biblical myth looks in the light of modern classical physics. He posits that in the future quantum physics might look as absurd as a myth of a flat earth. Roger Penrose says the same thing in his most recent book.

All theories, be they biblical, or scientific, use language of accomodation. Popper is correct that many modern ideas are nearly identical, in their metaphorical sense, to biblical theories. And most importantly, the modern theories were sired by the biblical ones.

Numerous historians of science have pointed out that although China had an enormous head start over Western Europe, their science was still-born by reason of their theology. Judaism and Christianity posited a God who transcended the pantheistic world. He created rules, laws, that were created, and not some natural and eternal phenomena hidden in their invisible unity with the "real" and "true" world.

Unlike primitive peoples, cultures, and religions, Judeo/Christianity posited a God who, because of his transcendence of his laws, and his creations, made them subject to dissection, examination, on a level naturalist cultures and religions considered profane, blasphemous, evil.

Islam continues the tradition that was universal outside of Judeo/Christianity until Judeo/Christianity offered the world I-phones, computers, planes, trains, and automobiles. The pagan humanism and naturalism/secularism that is global outside Christianity and Judaism have been bribed by seeing what Jews and Christians have done in a very short time. They still think Jews and Christians are ignorant and evil. But until they can figure out how we figure everything out, they're content to bask in the light of their Mac monitor and enjoy the riches of the Judeo/Christian technological revolution.

Something like 90% of all Nobel Prizes in science have gone to Christians and Jews (every important father of modern science was Jewish or Christian). And this is not an accident. Modern technology, the technological revolution, is a subset of Jewish and Christian theology. Jewish and Christian theology are the source and seedbed of modern science and technology rather than the beneficiaries of it (as is the case with atheists and agnostics, who are really modern primitives hiding under the technological umbrella provided by Judeo/Christianity).

For proof-positive, just look at the USA. That bastion of backwoods anti-Darwinist rednecks. We're the only nation on earth with the intellectual wherewithal to see Darwinism as a grotesque sham. Only the USA has a majority population who don't believe in Darwinian evolution. . . And yet the USA is the greatest engine of technology the world has ever known, by far. Jews and Christians go hog wild in the USA. And because they have set the foundation for the technological revolution, even the atheist here, who are actually modern pigmies, have joined the party (and I say good for them . . . bless them for their self-centered pragmatism; I say an I-phone for all of them, and to support their fragile egos, let them think they're a functional part of the revolution).


John
 
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Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
. . . I could agree totally with you about a rabbi having every reason to say that God re-established the original covenant with Adam with Abraham within a certain context (remember though that Abraham is just as much the father of Jesus, and Christianity, as he is Jews and Judaism . . . what's good for the goose is good for the gander; Abraham has two distinct ganders).

Nevertheless, Rabbi Hirsch is exegeting Hebrew not eisegeting it. He knows what he's talking about, and he's correct, in my opinion. The Abrahamic-covenant is a renewal of God's covenant with Adam, who was (Adam that is) the first Jew.


John

That would mean everyone is a Jew. We know that the son of Hagar was even a son of Abraham but not a Jew. I'm thinking the guy is wrong.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
That would mean everyone is a Jew. We know that the son of Hagar was even a son of Abraham but not a Jew. I'm thinking the guy is wrong.

. . . You should read some serious stuff about Jewish identity. What is a Jew really? You (most people) might be surprised. . . Could start with what you think a Jew is? What makes a person Jewish?


John
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
. . . You should read some serious stuff about Jewish identity. What is a Jew really? You (most people) might be surprised. . . Could start with what you think a Jew is? What makes a person Jewish?


John

According to the new testament a Jew is someone who has had a circumcision of the heart. That would be a spirtual Jew. The flip side would be someone who had a circumcision of the flesh and his family since obviously women can't have that procedure done. So it started with Abraham and the promise to him and his seed (Jesus). Abraham represents the mortal side circumcision of the flesh and Jesus the spirtual. Circumcision of the flesh is pretty much worthless, if a person wan't to be a true Jew, follower of Jesus and a child of God he must have a circumcision of the heart.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
. . . I agree with you. But for those who take the Bible seriously, I have a sound scientific theory not just for how Yeshua can be the legitimate "firstborn of creation," but one that answers numerous other oddities in the Tanakh.

John

Actually you don't.

You are mixing the Tanakh of the Jews, - with the Christian ideas - taken from Tanakh texts, - which the Christians misunderstood, or mistranslated.

Straight out, for the Jews, - One God, no virgin birth, - no Lucifer, and The Jewish Messiah is to bring about certain things when he appears; not get killed, and have a later different religion claim he'll be back to complete things. He's not the Terminator.

And I might add that there is no sound "scientific theory" for invisible Gods, or trinities.

*
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Karl Popper, my favorite philosopher/historian of science and the scientific-method, claims that modern science arose from the very myths you poo poo. He goes further by brilliantly pointing out that some classical physical models look as absurd in the light of quantum physics as biblical myth looks in the light of modern classical physics. He posits that in the future quantum physics might look as absurd as a myth of a flat earth. Roger Penrose says the same thing in his most recent book.
Yes, I'm familiar with Popper and more than conscious that all the conclusions of science are tentative, being based on empiricism and induction.

None of that makes the bible even remotely reliable as a guide to science, other than the science of the respective times and places its books were written.

So that there are many other ancient books which have better claims to being true (in the sense of making accurate statements about reality) than the bible has.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm familiar with Popper and more than conscious that all the conclusions of science are tentative, being based on empiricism and induction.

None of that makes the bible even remotely reliable as a guide to science, other than the science of the respective times and places its books were written.

So that there are many other ancient books which have better claims to being true (in the sense of making accurate statements about reality) than the bible has.

Karl Popper isn't the only knowledgeable person to claim that Judeo/Christianity is the seed-bed for the modern technological revolution. John Wheeler (with many others) posited that when Bishop Berkeley, arguing from scripture, claimed that a chair wasn't technically there when no one was looking at it, he became the impetus for the eventual revelation of quantum physics, which states pretty much what Bishop Berkeley said ----- "How does quantum mechanics today differ from what Bishop George Berkeley told us two centuries ago, `Esse est percipi', to be is to be perceived" (John Wheeler). -----The Oxford Professor Bryan Magee put it this way:

One thing that has always struck me forcefully about this doctrine of Kant's is that it legitimates important components of a belief which he had held since long before he began to philosophize, namely Christian belief. It is a standard part of the traditional Christian faith that time and space and material objects are local characteristics of this human world of ours, but only of this world: they do not characterize reality as such . . . But what he [Kant] did, unmistakably (and unremarked on to an extent that has never ceased to astonish me), is produce rational justification for many aspects of the religious beliefs in which he grew up (Magee 97, p. 249,250).​

Distinct from every religion or philosophy ever devised in the mind of man, Jews posited a God who existed in an utterly indeterminant state not subject to the very laws, or world, or reality, he himself created ex nihilo. -----This idea of a God outside of the laws of classical physics, a God not subject to the laws he created, existing outside of the world perceived as all there is, is so great that it could only (that conception) have come from outside the classical physical world inhabited by all of Israel's enemies.

Christianity took it further. It posited that this Jewish God, not subject to the laws he created, kenotically imprisoned himself, freely, of his own freewill, in the world he created, so that he could infuse that world, and the men and women who are themselves consigned to it, with the divine freedom of indeterminancy associated with Jewish monotheism. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity between God and man, the laws of classical physics, contained in ordinances [the Law], for to make in himself of the two former (classical and indeterminate) one new man, so making peace between God and man, deity and humanity (Ephesians 2:15).

Christian theology, to the fear and frustration of Jews, posited that the indeterminate God of Jewish monotheism imprisoned himself in the flesh of men, formerly locked into the classical world of physics, precisely to infuse them, share with them, the divine power and freedom he had exclusively in Jewish theology. . . Lo and behold, between the two of them, Christians and Jews, theology and Judeo/Christian science, man, men, realized the power of this lawless indeterminancy now known as quantum physics. Using this power, Jews and Christians created the technological revolution that is threatening to return control of the classical world to mankind therein reversing the effect of the Fall in the Garden whereby Adam, the first man, was consigned to the prison of the classical world with seemingly no escape.

Daniel Dennett's book, Freedom Evolves, attempts to deal, in a non-theological way, with precisely this quantum indeterminancy that has arisen in the thinking of men. He wonders out loud how minds allegedly created through classical physical forces could have transcended the very laws through which the human mind developed, in order to not only transcend those laws, but to literally start re-writing them, in effect taking over evolution by splicing genes, and forcing quantum, indeterminate states, on, into, the classical world the human mind should be imprisoned in:

Human freedom [quantum indeterminancy, freedom from classical laws] is not an illusion; it is an objective phenomenon, distinct from all other biological conditions and found in only one species, us. The differences between autonomous human agents and the other assemblages of nature are visible not just from an anthropocentric perspective but also from the most objective standpoints (the plural is important) achievable. Human freedom is real---as real as language, music, and money----so it can be studied objectively from a no-nonsense, scientific point of view. But like language, music, money, and other products of society, its persistence is affected by what we believe about it. So it is not surprising that our attempts to study it dispassionately are distorted by anxiety that we will clumsily kill the specimen under the microscope.

Human freedom is younger than the species. Its most important features are only several thousand years old--- an eyeblink in evolutionary history---but in that short time it has transformed the planet in ways that are as salient as such great biological transitions as the creation of an oxygen-rich atmosphere and the creation of multicellular life. Freedom had to evolve like every other feature of the biosphere, and it continues to do so today. Freedom isreal now, in some happy parts of he world, and those who love it love wisely, but it is far from inevitable, far from universal. If we understand better how freedom arose, we can do a better job of preserving it for the future, and protecting it from its many natural enemies.

Freedom Evolves, Daniel Dennett, p. 305.​

Dennett concedes that "freedom" the power to use quantum indeterminancy against the classical physical world, is younger than the species. It evolved first through Judaism, and then climaxed in Christian theology. Throughout the NT, we read dozens of quotations which, translated in modern language, are the source, the seed, from whence this "freedom" came to be. It arose on the cross of Christ when his disciples, against the grain of the classical view that Jesus had died, claimed he rose from the dead as the "firstborn" from the classical world, the classical law, where death reigns lawful and supreme.

When Jesus' disciples preached that Jesus rose from the dead, they were preaching the arrival of quantum indeterminancy in the most virile way: don't fear classical death, and the appearances of it, for Jesus indeed rose from the most powerful law of the natural, classical, world, death.

Albert Einstein preached that the second law of thermodynamics, the source of "death," is the least likely of all natural laws to ever be rescinded. Jesus' disciples exclaimed the victorious revelation that in his resurrection from the dead, from the second law of classical thermodynamics, Jesus had freed all mankind from the most unbreachable of all classical laws: death. ------- I proclaim this victorious proclamation to you blu. Jesus indeed rose from the dead. And for that reason, you have nothing to fear from death, senescence, the rotting of the classical body through the enforcement of the second law. A new world has arrived. As Dennett points out, it wasn't inevitable. And neither will all participate in it. But it's available to all who have ears to here.



John
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Karl Popper isn't the only knowledgeable person to claim that Judeo/Christianity is the seed-bed for the modern technological revolution.
The role of Christianity in the development of science comes from the Schoolmen, who picked up Classical thought (Roman but more especially Greek) and ran with it ─ think Aquinas, Peter Abelard, Roger Bacon, William of Occam/Ockham and others (and their bitter political opponents such as Bernard of Cluny).

The debt is first to the Greeks for having the culture of thinking that led to the Renaissance, and to the Enlightenment, and only second to the RCC and its offshoots for spreading Graeco-Roman culture and making it part of the intellectual discourse of Europe.
John Wheeler (with many others) posited that when Bishop Berkeley, arguing from scripture, claimed that a chair wasn't technically there when no one was looking at it, he became the impetus for the eventual revelation of quantum physics, which states pretty much what Bishop Berkeley said ----- "How does quantum mechanics today differ from what Bishop George Berkeley told us two centuries ago, `Esse est percipi', to be is to be perceived" (John Wheeler).
Berkeley was one of the British empiricists, along with Locke and Hume, and along with their Continental rationalist counterparts were important in putting better philosophical wheels under science. 'Esse est percipi', as long as its application is understood to be generic and not confined to specific instances, is a view innate in science.

(I'm not a Kantian.)
Distinct from every religion or philosophy ever devised in the mind of man, Jews posited a God who existed in an utterly indeterminant state not subject to the very laws, or world, or reality, he himself created ex nihilo.
Not originally. As archaeology shows, Yahweh arose around 1500 BCE as a god of a southern Canaanite tribe, and as a member of the Canaanite pantheon had the goddess Asherah as his consort. His evolution from tribal god to leading god to monogod can be followed in the bible, I've never enquired into exactly when he became apophatic. But as for being unprecedented, Wikipedia says ─

Parmenides (fl. late sixth or early fifth century BC), in his poem On Nature, gives an account of a revelation on two ways of inquiry. "The way of conviction" explores Being, true reality ("what-is"), which is "What is ungenerated and deathless,/whole and uniform, and still and perfect."
But by now we're a long way from our topic, which is your claim that the bible is 'truer' than other books. You seem to have conceded that it isn't.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
The descendants of Cain are the Kenites in scriptures and Satan being the father of them, John 8:41- 44.

We're all descendants of Cain through Namaah (Noah's wife). . . Noah's lineage comes through Seth, while Namaah (his wife) traces her line through Cain. All their offspring share those two lines.

Think of the irony. The Flood is to stop the mixing of the two lines, and start fresh. And yet Noah and Namaah are a mixture. With one proviso: Genesis six says the bene ha elohim (sons of Cain) are taking the daughters of Seth, while Noah is a son of Seth, taking a daughter of Cain.



John
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
We're all descendants of Cain through Namaah (Noah's wife).


John

Your to funny, Cain descendants did not come by Noah's wife. Noah only had 3 sons.Shem, Ham,Japheth.
Cain's descendants came by those other people who were on the ark.
There were other people on the ark. Besides Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives.

Who do you suppose those are that God told Noah "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt you bring into the ark, to keep them alive with you: they shall be male and female" Genesis 6:19

This being male and female of the human race male and female.

You know they can not be animals, because as you read in Verse 20 God told Noah of what animals to take.
Genesis 6:20.

Therefore Noah took a male and female of each Race of human beings on the ark.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Your to funny, Cain descendants did not come by Noah's wife. Noah only had 3 sons.Shem, Ham,Japheth.
Cain's descendants came by those other people who were on the ark.
There were other people on the ark. Besides Noah and his wife and his sons and their wives.

Who do you suppose those are that God told Noah "And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt you bring into the ark, to keep them alive with you: they shall be male and female" Genesis 6:19

This being male and female of the human race male and female.

You know they can not be animals, because as you read in Verse 20 God told Noah of what animals to take.
Genesis 6:20.

Therefore Noah took a male and female of each Race of human beings on the ark.

How many races were there? . . . And why wouldn't verse 19 segue into 20? I would never read the text to imply that anyone other than Noah and his family were on the ark with the animals. Which is to say that in my opinion you're finding things in the text that no serious exegete has ever found. Can you give an authoritative exegete or commentary (Luther, Rashi, Nachmanides, etc.) who claims human beings other than Noah and his family were on the ark?



John
 
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Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
How many races were there? . . . And why wouldn't verse 19 segue into 20? I would never read the text to imply that anyone other than Noah and his family were on the ark with the animals. Which is to say that in my opinion you're finding things in the text that no serious exegete has ever found. Can you give an authoritative exegete or commentary (Luther, Rashi, Nachmanides, etc.) who claims human beings other than Noah and his family were on the ark?



John

To answer your question, how many Races were there, just look around that should tell you that Noah took a male and female,
two of each Race into the ark with him. Male and Female.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
. . . Silly me. I forgot the ark was the first United Nations building.


John

So explain in your words, where exactly the Races came to be on this side of the flood of Noah's.

You know what, you fit right into
1st Corinthians 2:14--"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: For they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned"

Had you had any Spiritual discernment, You would understand how the Races came to be and who was on ark besides Noah and his family and the animals.
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
We're all descendants of Cain through Namaah (Noah's wife). . . Noah's lineage comes through Seth, while Namaah (his wife) traces her line through Cain. All their offspring share those two lines.

Think of the irony. The Flood is to stop the mixing of the two lines, and start fresh. And yet Noah and Namaah are a mixture. With one proviso: Genesis six says the bene ha elohim (sons of Cain) are taking the daughters of Seth, while Noah is a son of Seth, taking a daughter of Cain.

John

Actually Tanakh does not name Noah's wife.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

According to later Jewish tradition her name is Naamah - the sister of Tubal-cain, a descendant of Cain.

*
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Actually Tanakh does not name Noah's wife.

Gen 7:7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.

According to later Jewish tradition her name is Naamah - the sister of Tubal-cain, a descendant of Cain.

*

. . . Most Jewish tradition has a sound biblical source. Sometimes it's difficult to find the source unless you're on the same wave-length as the tradition. There are sound biblical arguments for how and why we know Noah's wife was in Cain's line; pretty much undeniable logic and proof.


John
 
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