Scottish & Welsh MPs are second-class in Westminster

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Despite being told we in Scotland have a welcome, equal voice in governance of the UK, English Tory MPs today passed the Conservative Party's plans to give English MPs privileged status in the Commons.

MPs south of the border can now vote exclusively on any matter the Speaker decides is 'English only'. The Speaker, whose position has been neutral until now (at least in theory) now has sole discretion over what to exclude Scottish & Welsh MPs from voting on. This means that even if a bill has a direct impact on Scotland's budget (e.g. spending on the English NHS) we can't have a say in it now.

The reaction of one Heather Wheeler, member for South Derbyshire, to a comment in the House was to point at the SNP contingent and say "no, they need to be on their planes back".


Controversially, last time a list was published on what matters would be considered 'English-only' under this proposal 'Devolving powers to Scotland' was included on the list. Labour have called these plans what they are: an incomprehensible mess.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-for-english-laws-plan-before-commons-debate

Can these proposals be any more crooked? Seems like another nail in the coffin of the Union to me.

 

[Augustus]

Despite being told we in Scotland have a welcome, equal voice in governance of the UK, English MPs today passed the Conservative Party's plans to give English MPs privileged status in the Commons.

MPs south of the border can now vote exclusively on any matter the Speaker decides is 'English only'. The Speaker, whose position has been neutral until now (at least in theory) now has sole discretion over what to exclude Scottish & Welsh MPs from voting on. This means that even if a bill has a direct impact on Scotland's budget (e.g. spending on the English NHS) we can't have a say in it now.

Controversially, last time a list was published on what matters would be considered 'English-only' under this proposal 'Devolving powers to Scotland' was included on the list.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...sh-votes-for-english-laws-plans-politics-live

Can these proposals be any more crooked? Seems like another nail in the coffin of the Union to me.

It's very strange. The conservatives went on about how important the union is and how important Scotland is to the union and as soon as the referendum finished they started to campaign on an anti-scottish platform.

They want Scotland in the union but only if they get to treat it as their b**ch.

Bunch of posh Eton pig-f**kers.

 

[Yerda]

As time goes on I have to say that my hatred of the Conservative leaders has given way to admiration. They might be evil but bloody hell they are good at what they do. Sometimes you have to tip your hat and congratulate the enemy. Well played, Dark Artists.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Quite right too, it's time those rebellious Scots were put in their place, Edward Longshanks had the right idea!

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Quite right too, it's time those rebellious Scots were put in their place, Edward Longshanks had the right idea!

It says a lot that Doctor Evil is giving Longshanks the thumbs up

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It says a lot that Doctor Evil is giving Longshanks the thumbs up

 

[HonestJoe]

Despite being told we in Scotland have a welcome, equal voice in governance of the UK, English Tory MPs today passed the Conservative Party's plans to give English MPs privileged status in the Commons.

Surely if anything made Scottish and Welsh MPs “second class” it was devolution, which took away half of their responsibilities and handed them to the MSPs and AMs. This is just a change to recognise the inconsistency in Westminster due to the fact that a majority Scottish and Welsh people wanted devolved government while the majority of English people don’t.

MPs south of the border can now vote exclusively on any matter the Speaker decides is 'English only'... This means that even if a bill has a direct impact on Scotland's budget (e.g. spending on the English NHS) we can't have a say in it now.

That’s not true however many times it gets repeated. The system is that there is an additional step where only English (or English and Welsh) MPs debate devolved issues. They can oppose a bill but they can’t force one through and there is still the same set of full debates and votes which Scottish and Welsh MPs can take part in if they choose to in exactly the same way they can now.

The Speaker, whose position has been neutral until now (at least in theory) now has sole discretion over what to exclude Scottish & Welsh MPs from voting on.

The Speaker already has powers/responsibilities which could have massive impact on debate and procedures in the Commons. This doesn’t really open any greater scope for potential abuse and it’s not as if there aren’t people who would make a massive amount of noise if it were every suspected.

Can these proposals be any more crooked? Seems like another nail in the coffin of the Union to me.

It’s undeniable that the process by which this is coming about is a mess and it is indeed damaging to the Union (though this is exactly what the SNP is working for of course). The damage to the Union started with devolution though and any attempts to improve the situation will always have one hand tied behind their back because of this.

 

[Altfish]

Where does this stop?
Should Northern English MPs not vote on issues affecting only London?
MPs in the Midlands not vote on issues affecting seaside towns.

 

[Ultimatum]

Where does this stop?
Should Northern English MPs not vote on issues affecting only London?
MPs in the Midlands not vote on issues affecting seaside towns.

Holy slippery slope of a magnitude!

Three countries, therefore, surely, three bodies of legislature--this comes in the form of Welsh devolution, Scottish devolution and English devolution.

Let's not start entertaining the thought that Yorkshire will start having powers devolved to it, shall we?

 

[Augustus]

Let's not start entertaining the thought that Yorkshire will start having powers devolved to it, shall we?

If I lived in Britain I'd want powers devolved to all of the regions. The country is run too much for London and the South East, by folks who don't give a sh!t about those up north.

One size fits all policies don't work too well either, much better to have decisions made at the urban level rather than national. Might move things away from the sham democracy of the modern era.

 

[HonestJoe]

Where does this stop?
Should Northern English MPs not vote on issues affecting only London?
MPs in the Midlands not vote on issues affecting seaside towns.

Not entirely. MPs aren’t solely in Parliament to represent their specific constituency but also have a part in the wider role of Parliament to make these decisions. Conventionally MPs won’t be involved at all in the vast majority of legislation unless it’s of national significance, impacts their constituency specifically or they have personal expertise (or in a number of cases, unless it will be electorally beneficial to them or their party). There should (and generally will) be a number of MPs involved in decision making regardless of how many constituencies or areas of interest an issue might actually impact, all part of the wider checks and balances of a democratic system.

The difference with Scotland (and to an extent Wales) is that devolution took responsibility from Parliament as a whole for a number of things and so even based on the principles above, English MPs shouldn’t (and can’t) get involved with them. Scottish MPs can currently get involved in the equivalent issues in England (and still will be able even if these proposals go through).

If I lived in Britain I'd want powers devolved to all of the regions.

We’ve always had regional government in the form of local councils. The problem is that national politicians have long engaged in systematically taking power and money from them (though less often the blame when things go wrong) and national devolution only makes that worse. If it had really been about power for local people, Scottish, Welsh and English, it would have been a push to revitalise and re-empower that local government. In truth, devolution was always about the same old hording of power and control.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

MPs in the Midlands not vote on issues affecting seaside towns.

It's not the Brummies I'm worried about, it's those hordes of Scots in the SNP! They've watched "Braveheart" too many times.

 

[Kirran]

I'm very much in favour of devolution, to Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and to the regions of England.

 

[Altfish]

Not entirely. MPs aren’t solely in Parliament to represent their specific constituency but also have a part in the wider role of Parliament to make these decisions. Conventionally MPs won’t be involved at all in the vast majority of legislation unless it’s of national significance, impacts their constituency specifically or they have personal expertise (or in a number of cases, unless it will be electorally beneficial to them or their party). There should (and generally will) be a number of MPs involved in decision making regardless of how many constituencies or areas of interest an issue might actually impact, all part of the wider checks and balances of a democratic system.

The difference with Scotland (and to an extent Wales) is that devolution took responsibility from Parliament as a whole for a number of things and so even based on the principles above, English MPs shouldn’t (and can’t) get involved with them. Scottish MPs can currently get involved in the equivalent issues in England (and still will be able even if these proposals go through).

We’ve always had regional government in the form of local councils. The problem is that national politicians have long engaged in systematically taking power and money from them (though less often the blame when things go wrong) and national devolution only makes that worse. If it had really been about power for local people, Scottish, Welsh and English, it would have been a push to revitalise and re-empower that local government. In truth, devolution was always about the same old hording of power and control.

Does Boris in London not have substantial powers?

 

[HonestJoe]

Does Boris in London not have substantial powers?

Yes, but they’re powers largely taken from local councils rather than national government – policing, education, planning etc.

London actually comes closest to the kind of regional government I think would be a much better option for the people than devolution ever will be. Unfortunately other regions don’t have the same level of influence that London inevitably has.

 

[Yerda]

It's not the Brummies I'm worried about, it's those hordes of Scots in the SNP! They've watched "Braveheart" too many times.

They'll be charging over the border in skirts and Scotland tops. Forcing the English to eat haggis and shortbread, washed down with Irn-Bru. Leaving trails of ginger hair and blue face paint as they hunt for a drink shop.