Scientists and Clerics Agree: Keep Creationism out of Schools

[sonofskeptish]

As creationists in the USA join forces to make one last stand against science and rational thinking, and as creationist chatter increases on RF, this 2002 story from the UK is as relevant today as it was then.

In short, back in 2002, UK clerics and scientists joined forces to appeal to non-believers and believers alike to protect evolution from the faith-fueled attacks of desperate creationists trying to undermine evolution as a scientific fact, and trying to get creation onto school curricula. Here's a bit more on the story, including the UK clerics and scientists joint letter to then Prime Minister Tony Blair...

BBC - h2g2 - Creationism in the UK

I became aware of this incident when I recently read Richard Dawkins new book "The Greatest Show on Earth", which was originally to be titled "Only a Theory". He does a great job in the opening chapter of explaining how creationists manipulate the term "theory" to imply evolution is somehow less of a fact than any other in science.

He writes that polls show than 40 per cent of Americans deny that we evolved from other animals, and think that we were created by God within the last 10,000 years.

So here's my question... for those of us who do not deny history in this manner, how should we deal with creationists who are actually proud of their ignorance and who are actively spreading lies about evolution? Do we remain quiet and let them "spew", or do we actively speak out against them?

The alarming thing is that creationists seem to be "winning the battle" by more than one poll which suggesting that while creationist beliefs are declining elsewhere in the world, they are on the rise in the USA.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[Alceste]

As creationists in the USA join forces to make one last stand against science and rational thinking, and as creationist chatter increases on RF, this 2002 story from the UK is as relevant today as it was then.

In short, back in 2002, UK clerics and scientists joined forces to appeal to non-believers and believers alike to protect evolution from the faith-fueled attacks of desperate creationists trying to undermine evolution as a scientific fact, and trying to get creation onto school curricula. Here's a bit more on the story, including the UK clerics and scientists joint letter to then Prime Minister Tony Blair...

BBC - h2g2 - Creationism in the UK

I became aware of this incident when I recently read Richard Dawkins new book "The Greatest Show on Earth", which was originally to be titled "Only a Theory". He does a great job in the opening chapter of explaining how creationists manipulate the term "theory" to imply evolution is somehow less of a fact than any other in science.

He writes that polls show than 40 per cent of Americans deny that we evolved from other animals, and think that we were created by God within the last 10,000 years.

So here's my question... for those of us who do not deny history in this manner, how should we deal with creationists who are actually proud of their ignorance and who are actively spreading lies about evolution? Do we remain quiet and let them "spew", or do we actively speak out against them?

The alarming thing is that creationists seem to be "winning the battle" by more than one poll which suggesting that while creationist beliefs are declining elsewhere in the world, they are on the rise in the USA.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

I think everybody who deals with creationists regularly ought to be well-equipped with the facts and challenge their alternative reality. The Greatest Show on Earth is a great book for summing up the evidence, the details of the Kitzmiller vs. Dover trial are key to the legal question of creationism in schools, and the official pro-scientific positions of powerful clerics like the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury belie the claim that religious faith is in conflict with the truth as revealed to us by scientific inquiry. With a basic foundation in ToE, the sordid history of the creationist movement and awareness of the legal decisions handed down on the subject, you're fairly well equipped to combat the spread of this rot wherever it occurs. I think the best way to fight it is by keeping it out of public schools and fighting the public funding of religious schools. I'd recommend anyone in the Bible Belt with kids seriously consider getting onto the school board or PTA. That's how the creationists are playing it, and why their voice is being heard out of proportion to their numbers.

 

[Sunstone]

Creationism is worth fighting if you care about the truth and whether the standard for truth is whatever wishful thinking someone comes up with or is the weight of rational evidence. A society that turns its back on reason and evidence is a society in decline.

 

[Riverwolf]

Well, that 40% of all the people who actually knew about and participated in those polls (seriously, I really don't consider those polls 100% conclusive, because I've never heard of ANY of them when they actually take place), probably either went to Creationist-run schools, or didn't go to school (or pay much attention) at all.

Let's not forget that America has one of the worst education systems in the world.

 

[ShakeZula]

It takes constant vigilance and being active in your kid's school. You have to know what's going on and not be shy about voicing your opinion. Creationists thrive on complacency and being the only one doing the talking. If it gets to court they will loose every time, there is long precedent of that, but rational-minded parents have to be willing to put their money where their mouth is. It's not enough to just say 'oh, those darned creationists are mucking about again'. They have to be willing to challenge it.

My kid is only two now, I'm kind of interested in what school will be like for him and if I'll have these kinds of battles with IDers in the future. It kind of excites me and makes me sad that I might have to, all at the same time.

-S-

 

[sonofskeptish]

Well, that 40% of all the people who actually knew about and participated in those polls (seriously, I really don't consider those polls 100% conclusive, because I've never heard of ANY of them when they actually take place), probably either went to Creationist-run schools, or didn't go to school (or pay much attention) at all.

Let's not forget that America has one of the worst education systems in the world.

You've never heard of any of them? Here's a summary of just a few. Interesting to see that among high school drop-outs 65% are creationists, while among scientists at most 5% are creationists. The numbers suggest the 40% creationists estimate is actually low by some polls. The stats also show why creationists want into the class room... they've already got their hooks into most of the drop-outs...

Details here: Beliefs of the U.S. public about evolution and creation

1. Johnathan Moore, "What do Americans believe about the origin of species," Public Religion Project, 1998-OCT-12.
2. George Bishop, "The Religious Worldview and American Beliefs about Human Origins" The Public Perspective, 1998-AUG.
3. "Most Kansans for evolution: Majority polled think kids should study, be tested," Associated Press, 1999-NOV-9.​
4. News item in ReligionToday for 1999-DEC-29. They quoted the Conservative News Service. Original source of data was not specified.​
5. Newsweek magazine, 1987-JUN-29, Page 23.
6. "What do you believe about creation or evolution?," Focus on the Family poll, at: http://www.focusonthefamily.org/
7. "Darwin makes a comeback in Kansas," at: http://christianity.about.com/ The management of this section of About.com has been changed and the poll data was removed.
8. "GOP debate reveals widespread ignorance of science, startling role of how religion is affecting politics, culture," AANews newsletter, 2007-MAY-06.
9. Frank Newport, "Evolution Beliefs," Gallup Organization, 2007-JUN-11, at: http://www.galluppoll.com/
10. "Reading the Polls on Evolution and Creationism," Pew Research Center, 2005-SEP-28, at: http://people-press.org/

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So here's my question... for those of us who do not deny history in this manner, how should we deal with creationists who are actually proud of their ignorance and who are actively spreading lies about evolution? Do we remain quiet and let them "spew", or do we actively speak out against them?

My suggestion: stop spewing recrimination and join/support the NCSE.

 

[RomCat]

Creationism is already being taught in schools.
It is called the "Big Bang."
Every "rational" scientist in the world accepts this
as fact and admits that the Universe msteriously
came into being out of nothing in an instant.

 

[sonofskeptish]

Creationism is already being taught in schools.
It is called the "Big Bang."
Every "rational" scientist in the world accepts this
as fact and admits that the Universe msteriously
came into being out of nothing in an instant.

Here, have some frubals for your brilliant logic.

 

[sonofskeptish]

Biological Research - The threat from creationism to the rational teaching of biology

 

[Alceste]

Creationism is already being taught in schools.
It is called the "Big Bang."
Every "rational" scientist in the world accepts this
as fact and admits that the Universe msteriously
came into being out of nothing in an instant.

Actually no rational scientists think this. Only creationists think scientists think this. Add that to the looooooooong list of misperceptions about the real world.

 

[ShakeZula]

Creationism is already being taught in schools.
It is called the "Big Bang."
Every "rational" scientist in the world accepts this
as fact and admits that the Universe msteriously
came into being out of nothing in an instant.

What Alceste said. No one even marginally educated on the topic thinks the Universe came from nothing.

No, the only one's who think that are people like you that think god created everything from nothing. And that god apparently came from nothing.

-S-

 

[RedOne77]

What Alceste said. No one even marginally educated on the topic thinks the Universe came from nothing.

Right, that's why people like Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins advocate our universe coming from nothing and proclaim that the facts support them.

No, the only one's who think that are people like you that think god created everything from nothing. And that god apparently came from nothing.

-S-

No, the people who think that are those who have thought about the topic. And those that propose an eternal energy/mass from beyond the "big bang" have only abandoned logic and traded the truth of God for a lie as shown in the book of Romans.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. -- Romans 1:18-25

 

[johnhanks]

No, the people who think that are those who have thought about the topic. And those that propose an eternal energy/mass from beyond the "big bang" have only abandoned logic and traded the truth of God for a lie as shown in the book of Romans.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. -- Romans 1:18-25

Now, put yourself in the shoes of the former Saul of Tarsus around AD55. You've set yourself the daunting task of converting people en masse to believing that an obscure itinerant faith-healer executed a generation earlier was in fact the son of an invisible but all-powerful god in whom they'd better damn well believe if they want to be saved. Don't you think you might insert the odd paragraph to the effect that anyone who disagrees with you is a fool?

 

[RedOne77]

Now, put yourself in the shoes of the former Saul of Tarsus around AD55. You've set yourself the daunting task of converting people en masse to believing that an obscure itinerant faith-healer executed a generation earlier was in fact the son of an invisible but all-powerful god in whom they'd better damn well believe if they want to be saved. Don't you think you might insert the odd paragraph to the effect that anyone who disagrees with you is a fool?

Luckily I am neither Saul, nor do I live in 55AD. While the "task" was to convert people by the masses, the goal is to convert as many that will truly follow the teachings of Christ. "For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13,14) Jesus preached to thousands at a time, but when He died there was ruffly only 150 believers. He didn't sugarcoat the message, was upfront with many that were trying to follow Him, and many did not follow Him because of His teachings. While it may not be the nicest thing in the world to say that those who go against God are fools, or imply as much, being that tough is part of preaching the message of Christ. Neither Jesus nor Paul was looking for a quick emotional decision to follow God, unlike other ministries today that go off emotion and have nearly a 99% fall out rate. There are places in the Bible where people run to Jesus offering their services/discipleship and Jesus refused to accept them as they were. Christianity is not for the faint of heart.

 

[johnhanks]

While it may not be the nicest thing in the world to say that those who go against God are fools, or imply as much, being that tough is part of preaching the message of Christ.

Alternatively, it's an expedient way of putting down people who don't believe what you preach.

Over the years I've had many people tell me 'See, the bible even predicts there'll be foolish people like you who don't believe. How's that for prophecy?' Not very impressive, I fear: it would be more extraordinary if a proselytising text like this did not contain a rider to the effect that people who didn't believe it were fools / blind / damned / all three.

On edit: belatedly, welcome to the forum.

 

[RedOne77]

Alternatively, it's an expedient way of putting down people who don't believe what you preach.

I like to look at it as tough love, but I know most will not view it that way. And I do think that many 'preachers' overdo it, you will get no where just shouting 'convert or burn for all eternity' and the like.

Over the years I've had many people tell me 'See, the bible even predicts there'll be foolish people like you who don't believe. How's that for prophecy?' Not very impressive, I fear: it would be more extraordinary if a proselytising text like this did not contain a rider to the effect that people who didn't believe it were fools / blind / damned / all three.

Haha, I wouldn't consider that a prophecy. It is like saying 'the Sun will come up in the morning', completely useless as divine prophecy. And, things like that are inconsistent with what little I do know about prophecies in the Judaic-Christian religions.

You must understand, to the Christian Christ means everything, those who don't believe are considered condemned already (by Jesus Himself), as well as blind (for they do not see the truth) and those that deny God completely are considered fools in their own wisdom. I'm not saying this is the perfect proselytizing campaign, but it is the truth as laid out in the Bible.

On edit: belatedly, welcome to the forum.

Thanks.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Right, that's why people like Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins advocate our universe coming from nothing and proclaim that the facts support them.

Could you cite where Dawkins asserts such a thing?

 

[johnhanks]

I like to look at it as tough love, but I know most will not view it that way. And I do think that many 'preachers' overdo it, you will get no where just shouting 'convert or burn for all eternity' and the like.

I agree, but my gut feeling is that the lines referring to non-believers as fools etc are directed toward reassuring those already on board and immunising them against being persuaded away, rather than converting the hard-line sceptic.

 

[ShakeZula]

Right, that's why people like Lawrence Krauss and Richard Dawkins advocate our universe coming from nothing and proclaim that the facts support them.

Really? They did that? Show me. Cite me some source material as readily as you can copy/paste scripture that shows me Richard Dawkins affirming, with evidentiary support, that the Universe came from nothing. And Krauss, too, since you brought him up.

-S-