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Science standards under threat in Arizona

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
That last-thanking god for slaveholders-
has to about the most repellent thing I ever read.
you didn't read it Audie, If you had you would have read the last sentence. But you didn't. I said "(The slaveholders who did NOT treat their slaves like family) had only their lives reward, no afterlife.
You, like Subduction Zone, don't believe in good people who lived in those times. I do. I don't think they were most of them, any more than today, but they existed. And they were not all slaves either. You two want me to live in the gutter with you and I refuse. I pay attention to the good examples in the Bible not the bad ones. Nor do I take history's worst examples of anything.
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Please, don't give me that "God's perspective" nonsense. That is only your interpretation of God's perspective. It is not even well supported by the Bible. What I can tell you is how the Bible treats slavery. In the Old Testament, as long as Hebrew men were not enslaved, God had no problem with it. Even female Hebrews were slaves for life. You are reinterpreting parts of the New Testament to support your beliefs. And surely you can't be so naive as to take that verse about loving one's master literally. Now you are sounding just like a defender of southern U.S. slavery who claimed that the slaves were happier here than they were in Africa.
I view Slavery from the Christian Kingdom point of view. Hebrews represent the kingdom. And are to be treated well by their brothers to whom they have sold themselves. If they were not, God would not prosper the "owner". God views everything and everybody as His. The slaveholder was obligated to G0d. And if that is not taking God's side in this I'm sure I'll hear about it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
you didn't read it Audie, If you had you would have read the last sentence. But you didn't. I said "(The slaveholders who did NOT treat their slaves like family) had only their lives reward, no afterlife.
You, like Subduction Zone, don't believe in good people who lived in those times. I do. I don't think they were most of them, any more than today, but they existed. And they were not all slaves either. You two want me to live in the gutter with you and I refuse.
Evidently then you feel that keeping people in slavery

slav·er·y
ˈslāv(ə)rē/
noun: slavery
the state of being a slave.

slave
slāv/
noun: slave; plural noun: slaves
1.a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.​


is quite alright as long as one treats them like family. That about it?

I pay attention to the good examples in the Bible not the bad ones.
In other words, you happily happy cherry pick your way through the Bible.


.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
you didn't read it Audie, If you had you would have read the last sentence. But you didn't. I said "(The slaveholders who did NOT treat their slaves like family) had only their lives reward, no afterlife.
You, like Subduction Zone, don't believe in good people who lived in those times. I do. I don't think they were most of them, any more than today, but they existed. And they were not all slaves either. You two want me to live in the gutter with you and I refuse. I pay attention to the good examples in the Bible not the bad ones. Nor do I take history's worst examples of anything.


Making up insulting lies about me
is solidly in keeping with your repulsive
notion of what is praiseworthy and
godly.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Exo 21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a slave, she is not to go free like the men-slaves.
Exo 21:8 If her master married her but decides she no longer pleases him, then he is to allow her to be redeemed. He is not allowed to sell her to a foreign people, because he has treated her unfairly.
Exo 21:9 If he has her marry his son, then he is to treat her like a daughter.
Exo 21:10 If he marries another wife, he is not to reduce her food, clothing or marital rights.
Exo 21:11 If he fails to provide her with these three things, she is to be given her freedom without having to pay anything.

Right, there were still limits on whom one could sell to and a female Hebrew slave had more rights than a foreign slave, but as long as those rather limited rights were observed she was a slave for life.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Evidently then you feel that keeping people in slavery
slav·er·y
ˈslāv(ə)rē/
noun: slavery
the state of being a slave.

slave
slāv/
noun: slave; plural noun: slaves
1.a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.​


is quite alright as long as one treats them like family. That about it?

.

Hey, you watched "Gone with the Wind", right?

That is history.



Didnt ol' Abe say something about how slavery
may seem a fine institution, but nobody wants
it for themselves?

He must not of been a Christian.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
May I ask where you get that? Paul was executed for believing there was one God. The History Channel and Smithsonian have had programs on the persecution of Christianity. For a time, it was illegal to practice the religion.
You do .not seem to understand. I am not claiming there was no persecution. It existed, but has been greatly exaggerated.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Hey, you watched "Gone with the Wind", right?

That is history.



Didnt ol' Abe say something about how slavery
may seem a fine institution, but nobody wants
it for themselves?

He must not of been a Christian.

:thumbsup:

.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I was born again, for the same rason you probably call yourself born again.

You know, that accepting Christ as Lord and saviour and stuff like that.

Ciao

- viole

So... you never had a relationship with Jesus after "praying", much the same as every atheist/former Christian I know.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
So... you never had a relationship with Jesus after "praying", much the same as every atheist/former Christian I know.

Are you kidding?

Of course I had a relationship with Jesus, until I realized I was deluding myself. So, before that realization, I was exactly where you are now. Born again, and all.

Ciao

- viole
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Evidently then you feel that keeping people in slavery

slav·er·y
ˈslāv(ə)rē/
noun: slavery
the state of being a slave.

slave
slāv/
noun: slave; plural noun: slaves
1.a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.​


is quite alright as long as one treats them like family. That about it?


In other words, you happily happy cherry pick your way through the Bible.


.
I’ve Never said slavery was alright. Let alone in this day and age. We are discussing a time and place where slavery was the law.

In the case of war, captives were taken in that day and age. In this day and age, we deprogram our enemies.

What I have been arguing is in the ancient world not now. Then it was fine with everyone that the financially despondent could sell himself and his family into slavery. In that case and in that time, it would be far preferable to be treated like family by one’s master than to be treated harshly by a master, now wouldn’t it. We are discussing a time when there was no choice in the matter. If you want, when someone invents a time machine, I can go back in time and argue the matter with slaveholders. Until then I’ve only got Kind treatment to argue for that time and place.
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Making up insulting lies about me
is solidly in keeping with your repulsive
notion of what is praiseworthy and
godly.
What part was a lie? I've been accused of thinking That slavery is an OK thing. That opinion is a bold faced lie from the pit of Hades. I never said slavery was Godly. What I've tried to say is God took slavery and made laws governing a distasteful but common practice of the day.
And I'll say it again, having had good and bad bosses to work for, I praise God for every slaveholder of the past who was kind enough to treat his slaves as part of his family rather than the way Rome treated gladiators.
And I'll say again that harsh slaveholders had their own reward and will pay for what treatment they gave their slaves in the hereafter!
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Right, there were still limits on whom one could sell to and a female Hebrew slave had more rights than a foreign slave, but as long as those rather limited rights were observed she was a slave for life.
I've not said any different since the first time you pointed this difference out.
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
You do .not seem to understand. I am not claiming there was no persecution. It existed, but has been greatly exaggerated.
It may have been for a limited time that it was illegal to practice the religion, but persecution from Jews and from Rome were not limited during that time. And I've tried to make persecution from both what I was talking about.
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Hey, you watched "Gone with the Wind", right?

That is history.



Didnt ol' Abe say something about how slavery
may seem a fine institution, but nobody wants
it for themselves?

He must not of been a Christian.
He must have been a worshiper of false Gods. I know of no Christian in this day and age who thinks slavery was anything but an indecent practice. One that God put laws on at least for Hebrews that were made slaves. As I've told Subduction Zone, when I am using the word slave I'm talking about those who were made slaves to a brother in Christ at the time and age, or a Hebrew of that day and age.
 

Avoice1C

the means are the ends
Christianity was not so persecuted for being good to people and in the early period they were not that persecuted - it was not until much later that they were used as a scapegoat so that argument does not work.
Both Jews and Romans persecuted Christians. Not just Nero though that was the worst time. Persecution by Romans lasted until the religion was made a state religion. Personally, I think the Christians should have turned down being "a state religion". For many many a year, Christianity became the persecutor of the era. Not acting in accord with Christ's teachings.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
What part was a lie? I've been accused of thinking That slavery is an OK thing. That opinion is a bold faced lie from the pit of Hades. I never said slavery was Godly. What I've tried to say is God took slavery and made laws governing a distasteful but common practice of the day.
And I'll say it again, having had good and bad bosses to work for, I praise God for every slaveholder of the past who was kind enough to treat his slaves as part of his family rather than the way Rome treated gladiators.
And I'll say again that harsh slaveholders had their own reward and will pay for what treatment they gave their slaves in the hereafter!

In general such wild overstatement as yours
in bold above are likely to be a case of
protesting too much.

All I had to go on was your own words-
I praise God for every slaveholder

Before you say I am taking it out of contest,
you provided the context; the ones who
were nice. You praise god for the nice ones.

For one unskilled in the art, it may be be
so obvious what they actually wrote.

You praised god for slaveholders.
Whether you qualified that with "the tall ones"
or, "the one ones who dont eat fried grasshoppers"
makes no difference. Your words still praise
god for slaveholders.

As for your falsehoods about me, you did
simply make things up to say against me.
That you would claim to be unable to see
where you did that is either disingenuous,
or, alarming.

lets take a look-

you didn't read it Audie, If you had you would have read the last sentence. But you didn't. I said "(The slaveholders who did NOT treat their slaves like family) had only their lives reward, no afterlife.
You, like Subduction Zone, don't believe in good people who lived in those times. I do. I don't think they were most of them, any more than today, but they existed. And they were not all slaves either. You two want me to live in the gutter with you and I refuse. I pay attention to the good examples in the Bible not the bad ones. Nor do I take history's worst examples of anything.

Of course I read it. I read it more carefully than you, because
you seem unaware of how the language works, and the meaning
of what you actually wrote. Yes, you qualified it, but that
does not annul the praise to god for slaveholders.

Falsehood number two is in bold, "you, like Subduction...".
You simply made that up, and it is absurd on the face of it.

Number three there is really over the top, again grossly insulting,
but withal too childish to take seriously enough to report you.
Do refrain though, unless you wish to continue presenting
the worst example of "christian" behaviour.






 
Last edited:

Audie

Veteran Member
Special pleading by attempting to redefine slavery does not help your argument, @Avoice1C .

Oh but it does! I love it. The more it is redefined and
justified, made ok if the slaveholder was a nice one etc, the
more we see that the pleader and redefiner is really
standing up for his book!

The bible justifies slavery, so, the bibleist must go
forth and do likewise.
 
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