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Science IS religion

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
They either are or are not based on a same nature in the past. If they are they are false until you prove there was such a nature.

They are not imaginary - they are calculated from overlapping methods that confirm each other. You seem to be so desperate to try to discredit the science that you are being careless about telling the truth.

False. The belief is in the data. The data is able to be viewed independent of your belief and support the past that is a matter of written record. There is no need, or indeed no reason to use your fanatical belief set on it.

This is simply untrue. The agreement between the different data sets is an objective fact - even if you dispute the conclusion.

Try to follow here, ALL the measurements involve the same nature in the past belief.

The irony of you telling me to try to follow is off the scale. The assumption of constant nature is not something I dispute - your problem is to explain why different dating methods based on different and unrelated processes all agree with each other. The possibilities are:
  1. Because the assumption of nature being the same is correct

  2. Because the world has been deliberately made to look like that (Last Thursdayism).

  3. [to be completed by @dad]
So, come on, what is your answer? Note that endlessly repeating that they all assume a constant nature is not an answer, it's called "running away from the problem".
 

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
Guys, you're still arguing with a last thursdayist. You will never be able to convince him out of it.

At best, all you have left is to make fun of him. Proper debate? Pointless. He'll argue away all evidence with last thursdayism.

They're the worst kind of "Poe who's totally for real."
 

Earthtank

Active Member
Conclusions change, but they change within reason. Gravity will not be refuted causing you to float away. Neither will the theory of evolution. Both the theory of gravity and the theory of evolution are so well supported by evidence that there will be no changes as far as the refutation of the biblical myths go.
"the theory of evolution are so well supported by evidence" LOLOLOLOLOLOL sorry i meant, BWAHAAHAHAHAHA. Cool story bro
 

Truly Enlightened

Well-Known Member
DAD. I am not saying that time, space, and light is the same today as it was Billions of years ago. Or, that these differences prove that the universe and earth could be only 10,000 years old. You could certainly attack the "red shift" brightness of bodies, as not being empirical. You could demonstrate the relationship of dark matter to the speed of light. You could explain how the expansion of space or slowdown in the speed of light could affect our perceived angular sizes, which would affect true observable distances? You could argue that this relationship(angular size, red shift, and brightness) might be quadratic, rather than linear. You could also make an argument using probability and the chemical evolution. Any evidence-based, or a logically consistent hypotheses would do.

These are just a few rational arguments you could have made to defend your position. That is, the physical laws were different millions of years ago, therefore the earth and universe could indeed be less than 10,000 years old. But you chose to provide empty assertions, zero evidence, and a fallacy-riddle chain of logic. My belief/understanding of the explanations of natural phenomena, is based on falsifiable and dynamic evidence. This is the evidence that only science can provide. Your belief is entirely based on faith and superstitious pseudoscience. We are not here to test just how devoted you are to your faith. We are not here to defend what we can actually see working, in the physical reality we all live in. We are here to try and reach the open-mind that you once had, or to learn something new with the open-mind that we do have.

All creation proponents operate from the same creationist's manifesto. They must change reality itself for their beliefs to have any validity. They must never argue about anything that is knowable or certain. They must always deny, discredit, dismiss, or ignore any rational challenges to their assertions. They must always quote-mine scriptures whenever they are cornered. And, above all, they must never ever accept the burden of proof.

So, knowing this, we can expect certain things. You will avoid any questions that require objective evidence. You will hide behind anything that only a God could know. You will dismiss any evidence we present that supports our claims. You will cut, copy, and paste others opinions, for us to argue with. And, claim only to be the messenger. Your goal is just to teach creationism, or ID, in our science classes, until science can disprove it. In this way adults can use science to save face with their children, for still believing in fairy tales. In the end, we will simply be arguing with ourselves.

Here's a simple test. If all scientific explanations were proven wrong, what objective evidence could you use to demonstrate/explain any of the claims you've made? DAD, you are too far down the rabbit-hole to even have a clue how to climb out. But, this thread is "Science and Religion". This means that there might be some people that aren't satisfied with "God did it all", unlike you. There are certainly many more non-science threads that you could choose, where evidence, and intellectual honesty are not a high priority.
 

dad

Undefeated
Once again, your claim of a change, your burden of proof. All that we can say is that there is no evidence of such a change and therefore no reason to believe in one.

And "my myth fails without my nonsense" is never a valid excuse. You need to find actual evidence.
If there was or was not a change science wouldn't know. They just believe and reject history and the bible for n reason.
 

dad

Undefeated
Not anyone. Only those that profess beliefs and assert things consistent with the concept of Last Thursdayism.
Origin science does not believe in history. They try to wave it away as nonsense from a bunch of goat herders who were far less intelligent than they are. Ha.

Then some fanatics in that religion turn around and try to accuse anyone who will not open wide and swallow their fables as last tursdayists. Juvenile. Perhaps you should consider coming on over to an adult belief system?
 

dad

Undefeated
More than one method are used in dating specimens and are used to cross-reference each other.

Wrong. Name any one of these methods that does not use the present nature for models? They all do. But do go ahead and try to name ONE that does not!?

When we see that you fail in doing so, as we will if you try, you can then try to name any specific example of any specimen dated using any number of these belief based methods, so we can see your imagined correlation in action.

I will then proceed to expose the truth of the matter.

No blather needed.
 
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dad

Undefeated
What evidence do you have for the alternative?
I have the evidence of history and the bible records.
Since we can see now that science has no proof either way on what nature was like in that former world, you are left with the following choices. Admit you have just a belief and act accordingly, dropping any supposed connection to fact, knowledge or actual science, and posit your models of the past or future as ignorant faith based fables.
Or try to defend them as something more, and keep getting defeated.

You needed to show your origin science claims and beliefs and basis to be more than that. You failed.
 

dad

Undefeated
I suddenly have a mental picture of some guy in a courtroom in a paternal case, denying to be the father of some kid. The judge says "but the dna test shows that you are the biological father off this child..."

No problem, keep us posted and informed about your various visions, and revelations, and discombobulated attempts at using parables.

If you ever get to the stage of being able to debate and discuss actual issues, remember that DNA is only an issue if you have some from the days of the Patriarchs. (Noah, Adam, Methuselah, etc)

Modern nature genetics are not relative.

Tell us a bit more of your religion, do these visions come naturally, or are they drug induced?
 

sooda

Veteran Member
If there was or was not a change science wouldn't know. They just believe and reject history and the bible for n reason.

Fundamentalists have really hurt education in our country. Shame. Probably why we are falling behind in math and science.
 

dad

Undefeated
They are not imaginary - they are calculated from overlapping methods that confirm each other. You seem to be so desperate to try to discredit the science that you are being careless about telling the truth.
In the case of that graph, was it not representing carbon ratios? That is not different methods? That is using a belief that ratios were caused by processes in this nature.

Now if you would like to discuss how stalagmites are dated, we can do that. Again dates are based on a same nature in the past belief. Now if you want to pick some date that is rendered from the stalagmites, and a date that is similar derived from carbon ratios...great. Let's look at that.


This is simply untrue. The agreement between the different data sets is an objective fact - even if you dispute the conclusion.
W shall see how any date you offer is validated objectively. (hopefully you are not so dim as to try and claim religious dating is objective)

So if you come up with a date say, of 55,000 years ago using the two methods (we'll see what you actually offer as an example if you can get that much together here) we will look at what other evidence for that date being real can be found. Ha.

The irony of you telling me to try to follow is off the scale. The assumption of constant nature is not something I dispute
Obviously not since it underpins your beliefs!

- your problem is to explain why different dating methods based on different and unrelated processes all agree with each other. The possibilities are:
We wait for the specific dates/example from you!
 

dad

Undefeated
Fundamentalists have really hurt education in our country. Shame. Probably why we are falling behind in math and science.

You may be happy I was not running things. I would not allow godless evolution to be taught except in religion class as an example of mental and spiritual degeneracy.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Origin science does not believe in history.

:rolleyes:

No, you're the one that doesn't believe in history. You're the one who keeps yapping about a "different state past" (last thursday)

They try to wave it away as nonsense from a bunch of goat herders who were far less intelligent than they are. Ha.

Well... in our defense, we don't actually have to try hard...
I mean, let's be serious here, it's pretty easy to make fun off and wave away tales of talking snakes, magical gardens, physically impossible boats, living in a fish for 3 days, the sun "standing still" in the sky, magically turning things into other things, etc....


Then some fanatics in that religion turn around and try to accuse anyone who will not open wide and swallow their fables as last tursdayists.

Your "different state past" bare claims are an exact equivalent of last thursdayism.


Not really. It is what it is. It's not juvenile to point it out.

Perhaps you should consider coming on over to an adult belief system?

You mean an "adult" belief system that involves talking snakes and magic fruit?

:rolleyes:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I have the evidence of history and the bible records.
Since we can see now that science has no proof either way on what nature was like in that former world, you are left with the following choices. Admit you have just a belief and act accordingly, dropping any supposed connection to fact, knowledge or actual science, and posit your models of the past or future as ignorant faith based fables.
Or try to defend them as something more, and keep getting defeated.

You needed to show your origin science claims and beliefs and basis to be more than that. You failed.


Prove that the world wasn't created last thursday, with the memories implanted in our brain of us having lived our entire lives, the evidence planted to make the world look 4.5 billion years old in a 4.6 billion year old solar system in a 13.7 billion year old universe.
 

dad

Undefeated
Prove that the world wasn't created last thursday, with the memories implanted in our brain of us having lived our entire lives, the evidence planted to make the world look 4.5 billion years old in a 4.6 billion year old solar system in a 13.7 billion year old universe.
I understand the denial. You cannot support your beliefs you thought were a part of science. You want to toss out any desperate insults or false accusations since you have no honest means to debate.

Try to remember that your only job here is to support your belief based claims as something more than just beliefs. (not to insult people with other beliefs)
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I understand the denial. You cannot support your beliefs you thought were a part of science. You want to toss out any desperate insults or false accusations since you have no honest means to debate.

Try to remember that your only job here is to support your belief based claims as something more than just beliefs. (not to insult people with other beliefs)

No, just showing you how your "defense" of your "different state past" is the exact same as the defense of "last thursdayism".

You're making the unfalsifiable claim and then asking us to disprove it. As if that means something.

But go ahead. prove that the world wasn't created last thursday.
 
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