Scholarship v. the "guidance of the holy spirit"

[IndigoChild5559]

When dealing with Christians, I've noticed that they tend to fall into two general categories (yes I'm about to make a sweeping generalization).

There are those Christians who value careful study under learned teachers, and using rules of logic, science, textual criticism, etc. as tools to understand their scriptures. These tend to put their clergy through extensive seminary training in order to have the best scholarship in their pulpits.

Then there are those Christians who tend to be suspicious of book learning, who see educational institutions as enemies of the faith, and who do not trust logic or science, and see things such as textual criticism to be even satanic in some of their opinions. A book learned pastor is the last thing in the world they want. They make fun of such pastors. What they want instead is a pastor who is "led by the spirit."

By this, in my own opinion, what they are actually getting are pastors with a minimum of Bible learning in the basics, combined with a charismatic speaking style that is highly persuasive. That speaking style can be considered a gift, but it can also be indicative of a manipulative personality. After all, con men the world over have the same silver tongue. IOW, I consider them to be vulnerable to unethical sorts that will come in and take advantage of them.

It's not like scholars do no wrong. You can have a church scandal with any personality type. I'm just saying the odds for a problem are much higher with an openness to a manipulator.

And what's worse, they deprive themselves of the very "meat" they say they want. Meat, or depth of learning, doesn't come miraculously out of the heavens. I'm not taking God out of the picture. I'm just saying there is no denying the necessity of study. You gotta do your homework to get to the expertise.

From there, I could go on to the claim of some that supposedly "spirit led" Chrisitans of little learning can understand the Bible while learned scholars who are not Christians cannot understand it -- but that is a whole other thread.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you speak of the Ancient Testament, you do have a point.
But as for the Gospels, they are written in a very simple language...that anybody can understand.

 

[74x12]

When dealing with Christians, I've noticed that they tend to fall into two general categories (yes I'm about to make a sweeping generalization).

There are those Christians who value careful study under learned teachers, and using rules of logic, science, textual criticism, etc. as tools to understand their scriptures. These tend to put their clergy through extensive seminary training in order to have the best scholarship in their pulpits.

Then there are those Christians who tend to be suspicious of book learning, who see educational institutions as enemies of the faith, and who do not trust logic or science, and see things such as textual criticism to be even satanic in some of their opinions. A book learned pastor is the last thing in the world they want. They make fun of such pastors. What they want instead is a pastor who is "led by the spirit."

By this, in my own opinion, what they are actually getting are pastors with a minimum of Bible learning in the basics, combined with a charismatic speaking style that is highly persuasive. That speaking style can be considered a gift, but it can also be indicative of a manipulative personality. After all, con men the world over have the same silver tongue. IOW, I consider them to be vulnerable to unethical sorts that will come in and take advantage of them.

It's not like scholars do no wrong. You can have a church scandal with any personality type. I'm just saying the odds for a problem are much higher with an openness to a manipulator.

And what's worse, they deprive themselves of the very "meat" they say they want. Meat, or depth of learning, doesn't come miraculously out of the heavens. I'm not taking God out of the picture. I'm just saying there is no denying the necessity of study. You gotta do your homework to get to the expertise.

I don't agree with anyone who says it's not important to be educated. But I do believe that to be led by the Spirit is more important than education. And the scriptures themselves are how I came to that conclusion.

God anoints what you know and shows you even more. The great difficulty from God's view is not ignorance but pride. So God can use the educated and the uneducated. If they are humble then He can use the educated even more because they have more to offer in the first place. God doesn't show things to proud people. Know it all's can't learn new things because they already "know" everything.

So ... "Against stupidity even the gods contend in vain." - Friedrich Schiller

Nothing is stupider than those who are wise in their own conceit. (see Proverbs 26:12)

Moses was the humblest man alive according to the scriptures and no one was shown more than him. Paul said he received a "thorn in the flesh" a "messenger of satan" just to keep him humble so God could keep sharing revelations with him. That's how you know Paul gets it. He understands that the revelation comes from God.

Meat and learning do come from heaven but not without study. Even Jesus said "ask and you'll receive, seek and you'll find ..."

So people do have to seek which is to study in this case and also pray which is to ask. So the more educated you are the better but it's nothing without God.

I really think that's the point you're missing here because you rely more on education than on God. You should be educated but rely on God. That's when you're really doing it right.

 

[Rival]

If you speak of the Ancient Testament, you do have a point.
But as for the Gospels, they are written in a very simple language...that anybody can understand.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of allusions to Tanakh stuff in the Christian texts that go unnoticed by many if not most modern Christians due to lack of familiarity with the Jewish Scriptures. Same with things needing knowledge of Oral Torah in the Christian texts.

 

[thomas t]

I don't want to have a pastor that is not spirit led.
If education is missing, they could still be a brilliant pastor, though.

Then there are those Christians who tend to be suspicious of book learning, who see educational institutions as enemies of the faith, and who do not trust logic or science, and see things such as textual criticism to be even satanic in some of their opinions. A book learned pastor is the last thing in the world they want. They make fun of such pastors. What they want instead is a pastor who is "led by the spirit."

a third group says that God does not favor the educated, this is at least my interpretation of Romans 2:11 ("no respecter of persons").
A pastor that has a problem with reading comprehension... can still be a great pastor in God's eyes. In Germany, for instance, a rather known preacher was a car mechanic. Also car mechanics should be able to become pastors.
Of course it's nice when they know some Greek or Hebrew, but still, other abilities are far more important, as I see it.
They should always have great knowledge of scripture, though.

That speaking style can be considered a gift, but it can also be indicative of a manipulative personality.

I personally favor a speaking style that is plain normal. I disapprove of "holy" intonations.

edited to add the blue part

 

[Estro Felino]

@IndigoChild5559 if you do not give a concrete example, a specific example...we cannot understand exactly what you mean

 

[pearl]

There are those Christians who value careful study under learned teachers, and using rules of logic, science, textual criticism, etc. as tools to understand their scriptures. These tend to put their clergy through extensive seminary training in order to have the best scholarship in their pulpits.

These scholars are both men and women of believing faith, the difference is an apologetic approach and a critical approach to Scripture. I think the op is quite clear in what it is asking.

 

[Audie]

When dealing with Christians, I've noticed that they tend to fall into two general categories (yes I'm about to make a sweeping generalization).

There are those Christians who value careful study under learned teachers, and using rules of logic, science, textual criticism, etc. as tools to understand their scriptures. These tend to put their clergy through extensive seminary training in order to have the best scholarship in their pulpits.

Then there are those Christians who tend to be suspicious of book learning, who see educational institutions as enemies of the faith, and who do not trust logic or science, and see things such as textual criticism to be even satanic in some of their opinions. A book learned pastor is the last thing in the world they want. They make fun of such pastors. What they want instead is a pastor who is "led by the spirit."

By this, in my own opinion, what they are actually getting are pastors with a minimum of Bible learning in the basics, combined with a charismatic speaking style that is highly persuasive. That speaking style can be considered a gift, but it can also be indicative of a manipulative personality. After all, con men the world over have the same silver tongue. IOW, I consider them to be vulnerable to unethical sorts that will come in and take advantage of them.

It's not like scholars do no wrong. You can have a church scandal with any personality type. I'm just saying the odds for a problem are much higher with an openness to a manipulator.

And what's worse, they deprive themselves of the very "meat" they say they want. Meat, or depth of learning, doesn't come miraculously out of the heavens. I'm not taking God out of the picture. I'm just saying there is no denying the necessity of study. You gotta do your homework to get to the expertise.

From there, I could go on to the claim of some that supposedly "spirit led" Chrisitans of little learning can understand the Bible while learned scholars who are not Christians cannot understand it -- but that is a whole other thread.

The problem with scholarship is, it is hard work.
And it may lead you away from what you wanted to believe.

 

[Audie]

These scholars are both men and women of believing faith, the difference is an apologetic approach and a critical approach to Scripture. I think the op is quite clear in what it is asking.

Believing faith makes actual scholarship impossible.

 

[Audie]

I don't want to have a pastor that is not spirit led.
If education is missing, they could still be a brilliant pastor, though.

a third group says that God does not favor the educated, this is at least my interpretation of Romans 2:11 ("no respecter of persons").
A pastor that has a problem with reading comprehension... can still be a great pastor in God's eyes. In Germany, for instance, a rather known preacher was a car mechanic. Also car mechanics should be able to become pastors.
Of course it's nice when they know some Greek or Hebrew, but still, other abilities are far more important, as I see it.
They should always have great knowledge of scripture, though.


I personally favor a speaking style that is plain normal. I disapprove of "holy" intonations.

edited to add the blue part

Good work on last line about straight talk!

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem with scholarship is, it is hard work.
And it may lead you away from what you wanted to believe.

A friend believes that he has "spiritual insight", ie, that God guides
his thoughts. He distrusts all book learn'n except for Bible study.
One knows the truth simply by this divine mechanism of knowing.
Naturally, whatever he feels to be true is indeed true because
of his gift.
I can see the appeal to people who want easy answers & certainty
of belief. It's true because he feels it's true, & it cannot be disproven.
Some things that are obvious inerrant truths....
- Biden stole the election from Trump. Satan is behind this.
- Biden admitted publicly that he used a sophisticated voter fraud to do it.
- Trump has proof of massive voter fraud overturning his landslide victory.
- Christianity is science.
- Catholicism & Islam are Satanic.
- Atheists know God, but won't admit it...we lie.
- The Bible is inerrant.
- Democrats plot to take over with socialism. Satan is behind this.
- The quality of an argument isn't based upon reasoning & evidence.
What matters is the spirituality of the person making the argument.

It can be difficult to converse with him.

 

[Audie]

A friend believes that he has "spiritual insight", ie, that God guides
his thoughts. He distrusts all book learn'n except for Bible study.
One knows the truth simply by this divine mechanism of knowing.
Naturally, whatever he feels to be true is indeed true because
of his gift.
I can see the appeal to people who want easy answers & certainty
of belief. It's true because he feels it's true, & it cannot be disproven.
Some things that are obvious inerrant truths....
- Biden stole the election from Trump. Satan is behind this.
- Biden admitted publicly that he used a sophisticated voter fraud to do it.
- Trump has proof of massive voter fraud overturning his landslide victory.
- Christianity is science.
- The Bible is inerrant.
- Democrats plot to take over with socialism. Satan is behind this.
- The quality of an argument isn't based upon reasoning & evidence.
What matters is the spirituality of the person making the argument.

It can be difficult to converse with him.

Ask him if he is inerrant.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ask him if he is inerrant.

I have.
Only God is perfect.
What one admits to is often at odds with other things one says.

 

[Audie]

I have.
Only God is perfect.
What one admits to is often at odds with other things one says.

I have tried that too.

Have you ever tried to pick up an octopus ?

 

[Revoltingest]

I have tried that too.

Have you ever tried to pick up an octopus ?

Only from plates at restaurants.
I was thinking of trying to nail Jello to a wall.

 

[Audie]

Only from plates at restaurants.
I was thinking of trying to nail Jello to a wall.

Same idea for sure.

 

[Regiomontanus]

When dealing with Christians, I've noticed that they tend to fall into two general categories (yes I'm about to make a sweeping generalization).

There are those Christians who value careful study under learned teachers, and using rules of logic, science, textual criticism, etc. as tools to understand their scriptures. These tend to put their clergy through extensive seminary training in order to have the best scholarship in their pulpits.

Then there are those Christians who tend to be suspicious of book learning, who see educational institutions as enemies of the faith, and who do not trust logic or science, and see things such as textual criticism to be even satanic in some of their opinions. A book learned pastor is the last thing in the world they want. They make fun of such pastors. What they want instead is a pastor who is "led by the spirit."

By this, in my own opinion, what they are actually getting are pastors with a minimum of Bible learning in the basics, combined with a charismatic speaking style that is highly persuasive. That speaking style can be considered a gift, but it can also be indicative of a manipulative personality. After all, con men the world over have the same silver tongue. IOW, I consider them to be vulnerable to unethical sorts that will come in and take advantage of them.

It's not like scholars do no wrong. You can have a church scandal with any personality type. I'm just saying the odds for a problem are much higher with an openness to a manipulator.

And what's worse, they deprive themselves of the very "meat" they say they want. Meat, or depth of learning, doesn't come miraculously out of the heavens. I'm not taking God out of the picture. I'm just saying there is no denying the necessity of study. You gotta do your homework to get to the expertise.

From there, I could go on to the claim of some that supposedly "spirit led" Chrisitans of little learning can understand the Bible while learned scholars who are not Christians cannot understand it -- but that is a whole other thread.

Are there any parallels to this in Judaism?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then there are those Christians who tend to be suspicious of book learning, who see educational institutions as enemies of the faith, and who do not trust logic or science, and see things such as textual criticism to be even satanic in some of their opinions.

And you find no hint of this among Jews? Why the focus?

 

[pearl]

Believing faith makes actual scholarship impossible.

That's a false concept of scholarship. Whether the subject to be critiqued, there always exists a predisposition.

 

[pearl]

The problem with scholarship is, it is hard work.
And it may lead you away from what you wanted to believe.

Yes, it is hard work. And yes, it may lead you from what is comfortable. It may demand one become an adult in her/his religion just as other areas of life. Another words, to grow up, the Trinity is not 2 men and a bird.